The Silmarillion

[Rían]

ooooh, then here's a bit from LoB that you'll like - it's Hurin before Morgoth's throne:

'Is it dauntless Hurin,' quote Delu-Morgoth,
'stout steel-handed, who stands before me,
a captive living as a coward might be?
Knowest thou my name, or need'st be told
what hope he has who is haled to Angband -
the bale most bitter, the Balrogs' torment?'

'I know and I hate. For that knowledge I fought thee
by fear unfettered, nor fear I now,'
said Thalion there, and a thane of Morgoth
on the mouth smote him; but Morgoth smiled:
'Fear when thou feelest, and the flames lick thee,
and the whips of the Balrogs thy white flesh brand.
Yet a way canst win, an thou wishest, still
to lessen thy lot of lingering woe...'

[Morgoth asks Hurin to be a spy on his own people in exchange for lesser torment, and Hurin answers,]

'Build not thy hopes so high, O Bauglir -
I am no tool for thy evil treasons;
torment were sweeter than a traitor's stain.'

Go, Hurin!!!! You rock!!


Then from version 2, I like this slightly modified bit, with the little description of Hurin's hair, and how he was able to look Morgoth in the eye and no one has since.

Then Hurin answered, Hithlum's chieftain -
his shining eyes with sheen of fire
in wrath were reddened: 'O ruinous one,
by fear unfettered I have fought thee long,
nor dread thee now, nor thy demon slaves,
fiends and phantoms, thou foe of Gods!'
His dark tresses, drenched and tangled,
that fell o'er his face he flung backward,
in the eye he looked of the evil Lord -
since that day of dread to dare his glance
has no mortal Man had might of soul.

SO - are you on your way to the bookstore?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

No need, I already have it. I bought three big volumes which have all of HoME included.

[Rían]

Wow! You lucky guy Anyway, I hope you like those little bits about Hurin - I really like them.

[littleadanel]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

... but it's still worth reading for those sublime moments, ocassional passages that are just achingly, heart stoppingly beautiful and are worth reading again and again.

I have quite many of those... the chapters wich made me stuck in the story when I first read it, cuz I just needed to read and re-read them...

RÃ*an, The Lays of Beleriand rocks!! My very first and favourite piece of HoME. I wanted to buy it soo badly after I've read fragments of The Lay of Leithian (that's what the internet exists fooor! ), and realized that the poems in the Sil, in the story of Beren & lúthien, are only short parts of it... (And, now coming to think of it, the only parts ever translated into Hungarian. With the translation of HoME, they're stuck after vols. 1-2.)

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I bought three big volumes which have all of HoME included.

You are lucky, TD, you made me really jealous... *doesn't dare to think what such three big volumes would cost for her * Thankfully, I can only buy them one by one... if I saw an edition like this, surely I'd buy it on the spot, which would mean, well, the loss of all my spared money.

And I'm impressed, Ainulindalë at 11... I was 17, and even though I didn't have problems reading, it took a time to love those chapters too.

Edit: eek, I just realize I was almost completely off-topic... *runs and hides*

[Valandil]

I've just started re-reading The Silmarillion. I've read it through at least once before - and re-read different parts several times, but this is only my second (maybe my third?? not sure) time going straight through.

I'm just taking my time. Read the forward information, including the one letter, over the weekend. Then read "Ainulindale" yesterday and "Valaquenta" today.

In these early parts, when I read about the Valar first working in Ea and Arda - and the mention of how they had seen visions of what the Children of Illuvatar looked like, and copied those outer forms, but with greater majesty (something like that) - it makes me think of those "Coors" commercials with the gigantic young men and women playing around among the Rocky Mountains.

[Landroval]

Just a quick note: in the commentary on the first section of the Annals of Aman, it is stated that, though the shapes of the valar were tall, they were not gigantic.

[Valandil]

Landroval - just curious, where is that commentary? At least I don't think I have it in my copies of the Sil - but I just have a couple paperbacks.

In the earliest parts of the book though, they SOUND like they're just immense! In the days before the Children of Iluvatar actually appear.

[Alcuin]

Landroval’s statement sounds much like Tolkien’s description of Sauron in Letter 246:

Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.

Letter 246 was written in September 1963. If I correctly understand Christopher Tolkien’s introductory remarks to “Annals of Aman� in Morgoth’s Ring, that material was written around 1958. I wonder if the two concepts of the appearance of the Valar and that of Sauron might be closely related? I am also interest in the AAm citation.

[Landroval]

Here it is:

Note that 'spouse' meant only an 'association'. The Valar had no bodies, but could assume shapes. After the coming of the Eldar they most often used shapes of 'human' form, though taller (not gigantic) and more magnificent.

[Valandil]

My impression was influenced by the end of "Ainulindale":

Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn to the world by love of the Children of Iluvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that manner, which they had beheld in the Vision of Iluvatar, save only in majesty and splendour. Moreover, their shape comes of their knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World itself;...

So they took on a form similar to what they recalled from the vision, but the substance was different.

But then Melkor:

And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire:...

So - I know the language is metaphorical - and I'm not saying that the Valar were definitely like that - just that this was the impression it gave me, and something else I associated with it.

The other references you mention - where they are taller than the Children of Iluvatar but not gigantic - those are all after the Children of Iluvatar come.

[Landroval]

Ulmo too is given a rather terrifying description in the Silmarillion:

Originally Posted by Of the valar, Valaquenta

Moreover he does not love to walk upon land, and will seldom clothe himself in a body after the manner of his peers. If the Children of Eru beheld him they were filled with a great dread; for the arising of the King of the Sea was terrible, as a mounting wave that strides to the land, with dark helm foam-crested and raiment of mail shimmering from silver down into shadows of green.

and in Unfinished Tales too:

Originally Posted by Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin, Part one: The first age

...and it seemed to [Tuor] that a great wave rose far off and rolled towards the land, but wonder held him, and he remained there unmoved. And the wave came towards him, and upon it lay a mist of shadow. Then suddenly as it drew near it curled, and broke, and rushed forward in long arms of foam; but where it had broken there stood dark against the rising storm a living shape of great height and majesty.
...
Then Tuor bowed in reverence, for it seemed to him that he beheld a mighty king. A tall crown he wore like silver, from which his long hair fell down as foam glimmering in the dusk and as he cast back the grey mantle that hung about him like a mist, behold! he was clad in a gleaming coat, close-fitted as the mail of mighty fish, and in a kirtle of deep green that flashed and flickered with sea-fire as he strode slowly towards the land.

[The Telcontarion]

I think all these references by my friend Landroval and Valandil only suggests to me that the Valar for the most part where not gigantic in form though still impressive. The exceptions being Morgoth due to his arrogance and Ulmo's gigantic size could be a result of the nature of his role, due to the element inwhich he gave the most thought to and which he ultimatley governs within middle-earth. Water is immense and violently uncontrollable, taking up 70% of the surface of middle earth if the fact that middle-earth is fashioned after earth itself is to be believed.

I think that any form Ulmo would assume would reflect the cantankerous nature of the oceans, rivers and seas.

[Valandil]

I almost wonder if the size of the forms they took varied - depending upon which part of the account. I almost picture them as larger in the earlier parts. There's really nothing firm textually that I can base that on - it's just the impression I get.

From today's reading:

I had forgotten that the Two Trees seem to have gender. Telperion is called "he" and Laurelin is called "she". Interesting - because I remembered that the Elves think of the Moon as a "he" and the Sun as a "she" - the inverse of my own cultural impressions. And - since Telperion seems more like the Moon, and Laurelin more like the Sun, it's easy to see why the Elves consider the Sun and Moon as they do.

I had also forgotten about how Men, by their will, could shape their lives beyond the Music of the Ainur - which was like Fate to everything else in Arda. Wow - Men must've thrown the Valar for quite a loop! No wonder they stuck with the Elves and avoided Men like they did.

I had forgotten too that the Elves thought Men most reminded them of Melkor, of all the Ainur. Silly Elves.

[Landroval]

Perhaps Ulmo's terrible aspect adds to the his perceived height...

One thing that struck me is this:

Originally Posted by Ainulindale

...or who consider only the immeasurable vastness of the World, which still the Ainur are shaping, and not the minute precision to which they shape all things therein

Ea, a work in progress? Interesting - although in Myths Transformed it is hinted that they are 'fading', thus what they are still doing might be of lesser importance:

Originally Posted by Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, iii

The Valar 'fade' and become more impotent, precisely in proportion as the shape and constitution of things becomes more defined and settled.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I had also forgotten about how Men, by their will, could shape their lives beyond the Music of the Ainur - which was like Fate to everything else in Arda. Wow - Men must've thrown the Valar for quite a loop! No wonder they stuck with the Elves and avoided Men like they did.

I had forgotten that point as well, fascinating really. Brought back some good memories from my first impressions of the book and the signficants and true role of man. A key part of tolkiens message to his readers I had origianlly thought, and at the heart of the apllicability of his works. Whatever happens in this world, it is up to us, it really is up to us to make it happen.

[Valandil]

I had put the book on hold for awhile, but lately I've been back to it in full force. I read it about my whole trip on the el each day, to and from work - and sometimes a little over lunch - so I get in at least 1 1/2 hours per weekday, up to 2.

Wow! I feel like I'm getting so much more out of it the second time around. I guess I have a better sense of the characters and story as a whole, so I don't miss quite so much.

I'm in the middle of the story of Beren and Luthien now (is that about the longest chapter?).

And... I see better why the Sun is "she" and the Moon is "he" - that has to do with Arien and Tilion.

[Beor]

One of the best books ever. Nothing more really needs be said about it. Read the Silmarillion, or you're missing out on a big chuck of Tolkien's mythology.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Wow! I feel like I'm getting so much more out of it the second time around.

It's even better the tenth time around.

[Rían]

Beor! Hello!!!!! How's the family?

Val - That's great that you get such a solid chunk of time for reading it! It definitely gets better with each read. Next thing you know, you'll have all the HoME books ... (they're caallllllling you!!!)