LOTR Discussion Project: Book IV, Chapters 5 & 6

[Valandil]

Elanor has posted the next chapters on schedule - but I'll leave this one out in the main directory for a few more days, looking for The Gaffer's final words and any discussion that follows shortly after.

Then of course - I hope the discussion on all of these threads continues further after they're placed into the Discussion Project Sub-Forum.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

On that last point: yes. I suppose it is there to underline the estrangements between Elves and Men.

That's also something that's emphasised in this chapter, and it's something that ties together a couple of these points.

How did this happen?

If, in the late T.A, Men harked back to Numenor 3,000 years ago and the Last Alliance, how could they fail to keep up relations with the elves, their key partners against Sauron?

Did the elves fail in their "duty of care" for the people of Middle-Earth? If we accept the Elves are intended to inhabit the Undying Lands, and Men Middle-Earth, where does this leave the Moriquendi?

Back to the chapter, there is clearly a lot of divided opinion even within noble families on this point. It is interesting to contrast Faramir's reaction to Frodo's account of Lothlorien (positive and reverential) with Boromir's attitude to the place (suspicious).

So, is it an "academic" pursuit to hark back to the alliance with the elves? Maybe that is why Faramir has "an air of Wizards" about him.

i think it is something you see throughout all of tolkien's work on middle earth... the pride thing... there are numerous examples all the way back to the silmarillion of the different people's of middle earth estranging themselves from others... sometimes for fairly good reasons, sometimes for fairly petty reasons... but more often than not giving the evil forces of middle earth an advantage, at least in the short-term... even the valar can be accused of this... there are very few examples of characters truely willing to look at the big picture and try to put aside differences and bring everyone together against a common foe (ulmo, maehdros, gil-galad, gandalf), and not all were successful in their efforts... but it is only those successful ones who finally bring about the defeat of evil

[The Gaffer]

Excellent point, I think you're right, about the pride thing certainly.

Perhaps also that even the Elves thought that Sauron had been defeated and would not rise again.

PS - am back now so will be pushing this along a bit more over the next few days. Thanks for your patience.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

On that last point: yes. I suppose it is there to underline the estrangements between Elves and Men.

That's also something that's emphasised in this chapter, and it's something that ties together a couple of these points.

How did this happen?

If, in the late T.A, Men harked back to Numenor 3,000 years ago and the Last Alliance, how could they fail to keep up relations with the elves, their key partners against Sauron?

I agree with bj in what he says about pride, but I see other reasons as well. The High Elves had more or less retired from Middle Earth. They were fading, and living on memories of the past, and were little concerned about the affairs of other races in Middle-Earth, as long as it did not affect them directly. I think Gildor Inglorion was brutally accurate when he says to Frodo:

The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned with the ways of hobbits, or of any other creatures upon earth.

If there is one common fault among the Elves, then it is their self-centredness. Having Gondolin, Doriath, Nargothrond and even Lórien and Imladris in mind, it is rather ironic when Gildor says to Frodo:

The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out.

It was never easy for Men and Elves to live and work together. There had been alliances out of necessity, but never really understanding between them, they were too different. Men had not been in contact with the Elves for long time before the Elves realized that both parties would be better off with separate settlements. And this was during the First Age, when the process of fading of the Elves had not yet become significant and they were more alike to Men.

[The Gaffer]

Good stuff.

One could argue, then, that Boromir was right to be suspicious of the Elves, as they would act in their own interests first. So where does this leave the likes of Faramir, who are more sympathetic to the Elves, and are nostalgic for the old days? For there's no denying that Men too are "fading" in some sense; this is one of the clearest statements in this chapter, and it's definitely tied to their estrangement from Elves.

Is it just that Numenor was an "Eden" for Men, when they were able to realise their full potential, and their fading occurs as the years lengthen?

A final point for cunning linguists out there: is there any significance in the word Faramir uses for Lorien: "Laurelindorenan"? Is this how it is referred to in the annals of Minas Tirith, do you think?

[CrazySquirrel]

If, in the late T.A, Men harked back to Numenor 3,000 years ago and the Last Alliance, how could they fail to keep up relations with the elves, their key partners against Sauron?

First of all, in Numenor, by Downfall, the majority of the population hated Elves.

The Last alliance was 3000 years ago and Men became estranged from Elves very soon, perhaps starting with Isildur. Or it was the other way round, most likely. The Elves shut themselves in their enclaves, secured by their three Rings, and despised men. Was a man ever present at the White Counsil, the self-appointed ME government? Never, it was reserved for "the Wise".

And speaking of the Men of Gondor. The nearest elven realm was Lorien. Has the Lady ever welcomed men there? No. It was shut much like Valinor from Numenor. Of course men resented it. Has Lorien ever sent help to Gondor since the Last Alliance? Never. And unlike Lorien, Gondor was in peril rather often.
Sure by the time of LOTR nobody in Gondor expected help from Elves. And rightly. They got none at all.

[The Gaffer]

OK folks, I've been slacker than a jakey's drawers in posting the follow-up. I can only plead indifference

About the Chapter Title
The Window on the West has a delicious triple meaning. Gondor harks back to the glory days on Numenor, three millenia past, and its citizens are intensely aware of the fading of their power over the centuries. Minas Tirith, and the dunedain of the South, retain a vestige of its nobility and give a glimpse of glories past. Secondly, the Window refers also to Faramir himself, whose Numenorean blood runs true and who shows himself to be wise, intelligent and, above all, untainted by the pride which mars so much of Middle Eart. Finally, Henneth Annun has a window, which looks west.

Story Summary
Sam wakens to find Frodo being questioned by Faramir in front of a host of Men. Faramir seems unhappy with Frodo’s account and uncertain what to do. Faramir questions him closely about “Isildur’s Bane� but Frodo responds proudly, suggesting that he would do well to leave him alone.

Originally Posted by Faramir

“So, you bid me to mind my own affairs, and get me back home, and let you be. Boromir will tell all, when he comes!�

In this way, Frodo and Sam learn of Boromir’s death and find themselves accused of treachery. This is too much for Sam, who won’t stand for such “sauce�. He gives Faramir a piece of his mind, but gets put in his place rather swiftly.

Originally Posted by Faramir

“Do not speak before your master, whose wit is greater than yours.�

We then hear of Faramir’s “vision� and he learns more about Frodo’s journey. He is impressed by Frodo’s account of Lorien, and, while Frodo initially fears that all of the Company may have perished, Faramir reassures him that some must have survived to lay out Boromir in a boat as for a funeral. Faramir decides that he can trust Frodo; he must yet decide what to do with him.

“Though there is something strange about you, Frodo, an elvish air maybe. But more lies upon our words than I thought at first.�

Once they are on their way to Henneth Annun, we learn more about Faramir’s interrogation strategy. He deliberately shied away from discussing Isildur’s Bane in public, another sign that Faramir is a lot more sensible than your usual Man. Indeed, it turns out he was tutored by Gandalf and knows or has guessed a lot concerning Isildur’s Bane.

He has done some research of his own, it seems, and figured out that Isildur “took somewhat from the hand of the Unnamed.� His knowledge seems to be enough for him to realise that he would not gain from using such a weapon.

Originally Posted by Faramir

“I do not love the sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.�

On arrival at the refuge, we are treated to a brief yet wonderful description of the view through the waterfall at sunset, one of the most memorable locations of the Quest.

After a well-earned meal, talk turns to Frodo’s journey and the struggle of Minas Tirith. We learn more about Gondor, how it too has faded from its glory days, and about the further myths and history of Men: The Stewards, Numenoreans, and beyond to the Elder Days; and about their estrangement from the Elves.

While waxing lyrical about Galadriel’s resemblance to a daffodil, Sam accidentally lets it slip that Frodo is carrying The One Ring, and that Boromir was after it. After a minor drama, it all turns out for the best, since Faramir at last understands the enormity of Frodo’s task.

At last Frodo admits to Faramir his true quest, to destroy the Ring in Mount Doom. Faramir carries the exhausted hobbit to his bed and tucks him in.

Sam passes a final comment: on how Faramir reminds him of Wizards:

Originally Posted by Faramir

Maybe you discern from far away the air of Numenor.

[The Gaffer]

1)

Originally Posted by Faramir

Your heart is shrewd as well as faithful, and saw clearer than your eyes.

Was it fated that Sam reveal to Faramir the true nature of their quest?

2) What made up Faramir’s mind to trust Frodo?

3) Did the Numenoreans practice wizardry of some kind? We know that many of the “Black Numenoreans� became “sorcerors� and the like. (They may even have become Nazgul but I haven’t been following those threads recently.)

My view is that it’s a “technology� question: the Numenoreans’ crafts so far exceeded anything practised in Middle Earth (before or since) that they were seen as “magical�.

So..

4) Why should this been associated with wizards, as opposed to, say, elves or even dwarves?

[Rían]

"Originally Posted by Faramir" - LOL!

Yes, we all think at times that those characters are real, but that's pushing it!

[The Gaffer]

Don't blame me, Beard ofPants started it in her chapter review.

[Rían]

I guess I missed it there - funny!

I always loved how JRRT talked about Faramir in Letters -

Letter 66 by JRRT
A new character has come on the scene (I am sure I did not invent him, I did not even want him, though I like him, but there he came walking into the woods of Ithilien): Faramir, the brother of Boromir ....

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Was it fated that Sam reveal to Faramir the true nature of their quest?

Fated or not - it was necessary so that Faramir could have the chance to show his quality.
Faramir also has to face a temptation, as everyone else that matters in this book - and he was not conquered.

Why should this been associated with wizards, as opposed to, say, elves or even dwarves?

Well, it is Sam who speaks of wizards here, and one may ask how much knowledge he has of wizards. The only one he has ever met is Gandalf. So what is this wizardly quality that Sam associates with Faramir? My guess is that he recognises their noble spirits and their wisdom, perhaps he also sees someone who trusts his innate capabilities and power rather than relies on external artifacts and technology.

I'm glad you took this chapter Gaffer.

[Earniel]

Hm, interesting take on handling the chapter discussion.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I think this is a real milestone: Frodo is the *only* character in LoTR who undergoes significant change, and this is the first true measure of it. Do you agree?

I disagree, I think all nine characters did change significantly in the story. Legolas became friends with a Dwarf, something he probably never reckoned possible. For the bone-headed Elf he was at first, he turned 180 degrees. Gimli fell head over heels for an Elven Lady, something he probably never saw coming. Merry and Pippin also 'grew', I don't think they would have acted the same way they did on the Scourging of the Shire if they had been the exact same Hobbits that had left the Shire months before. Gandalf definitely changed, not only fashion-wise, but also in behaviour. He takes a more active role, IMO. And Aragorn saw some change as well between being a Ranger and a prospective King of very big country. Especially around the chapters after their visit to Isengard. I doubt he would have used the PalantÃ*r and actually challenged Sauron through it when he just left Rivendell. Nor would he have braved the Path of the Death IMO. The only one that pretty much stayed the same, without significant change, is Sam, the ever dependable Sam Gamgee. Although too much change would have been out of character for him.

But Frodo stands more in the central position and we read a great deal more of Frodo than the other eight companions. And by carrying the Ring for so long, I suppose Frodo changed most significantly of all.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

2) The Window on the West is, of course, a metaphor for Gondor looking back to the glory days of Numenor. Discuss.

I like the idea. One can take it a little further also. The Window of the West is more or less 'obscured' by giant water curtain and it was water that came between the Faithful and Númenor.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

3)Yeah, right. Who believes him?

On my first read, I wanted to believe him, but was suspicious, just like the Hobbits. After all, saying it is one thing, doing -especially considering the dire influence of the Ring on Boromir- is quite another.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Did the Numenoreans practice wizardry of some kind? We know that many of the “Black Numenoreans� became “sorcerors� and the like. (They may even have become Nazgul but I haven’t been following those threads recently.)

I suppose that through Elros the Numenoreans inherited certain skills which came natural to Elves but were considered magic by Men. So maybe they had it more easy to pick up the few spells Sauron taught them later.

My view is that it’s a “technology� question: the Numenoreans’ crafts so far exceeded anything practised in Middle Earth (before or since) that they were seen as “magical�.

So..

4) Why should this been associated with wizards, as opposed to, say, elves or even dwarves?

It's indeed a good question. Even the 'enchanted' toys that Bilbo bought to hand out on his birthday were linked (at least, in my memory) more to Dale than to the Lonely Mountain. I suppose that maybe the skills of the Elves were more geared at plants and life and such, while the skills of the Dwarves were aimed at stones and jewels and such craft work. But machines seems something to be linked only to Men and Wizards, as if they only had the skill to envision them.

[The Gaffer]

Hello and thanks for resurrecting. I might even post my Forbidden Pool summary...

On the character change thing, I see what you mean. They certainly change in that they do stuff they hadn't done before, and which they wouldn't have done before.

However in some respects it's to do with how these changes are referenced in the narrative. There is no account of the internal goings-on. People doing surprising or different things are talked about in terms of people doing what's in their nature, rather than becoming as such. Aragorn is a particularly good example of this. "When have I ever [something about acting hastily] who have waited so long." etc. Also Legolas: he doesn't change so much as have his the sea-longing "awakened".

Whereas with Frodo, we get a proper spiritual transformation, IMO.

Anyhoo, LOVE the water curtain/barrier idea. Through a glass darkly and all that. Also liked your idea of how wizards were more associated with men, though IIRC, the kids of the shire had no idea what DALE meant on the bottom of their toys. Still, presumably Sam had got the story from Bilbo.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Hello and thanks for resurrecting. I might even post my Forbidden Pool summary...

Yes, please post it.

On the character change thing, I see what you mean. They certainly change in that they do stuff they hadn't done before, and which they wouldn't have done before.

However in some respects it's to do with how these changes are referenced in the narrative. There is no account of the internal goings-on. People doing surprising or different things are talked about in terms of people doing what's in their nature, rather than becoming as such. Aragorn is a particularly good example of this. "When have I ever [something about acting hastily] who have waited so long." etc. Also Legolas: he doesn't change so much as have his the sea-longing "awakened".

Whereas with Frodo, we get a proper spiritual transformation, IMO.

I agree that the extent of the change in the different fellowship members is somewhat open to discussion. Frodo goes through a number of 'emotional' pivotal points, which the other characters do less, or less noticably. All throughout the book we mostly only get an insight in the thoughts and emotions of the Hobbits, and again most notably Frodo.

I've often wondered whether that was a strenght or a weakness of LoTR. One way the fact that you learn little of the actual thoughts and feelings of Aragorn, Gandalf and the like, makes one unable to create the same emotional rapport that one gets with the Hobbits. But in another way, for me, it creates more of an 'heroic' atmosphere which also adds to the story in its own way.

Also liked your idea of how wizards were more associated with men, though IIRC, the kids of the shire had no idea what DALE meant on the bottom of their toys. Still, presumably Sam had got the story from Bilbo.

I wasn't going to say associated, just more alike. But now that I think about it, it does have some validity. I just remembered that the Istari were described as old Men, not Elves, not Dwarves but Men. It definitely opens some interesting perspectives.

To be honest I can't entirely remember how the gifts at the party went so you're probably right.

[The Gaffer]

Yes, I agree with you about the lack of insight into what the characters are going through. Lots of people criticise LOTR on this basis, but I think it is a strength for this kind of book. It purports to be an account of a legend, which traditionally focus on deeds rather than emotions. It also helps to keep us readers in the perspective of the hobbits rather than flitting around from one view to the next. And finally, it means that you as the reader "fill in the gaps" with your own emotional intelligence. You build the characters in your own mind.