Boromir I became a wraith?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by gordis

As for the "wraith Earnur", I doubt Gondor would be happy if he returned one day... Strange the Morgul Lord has not played this card, though. It might have been a very cruel joke.

He did not need Earnur when he had such ace card in his sleeve as the Witch -king, one of the mightiest kings of Numenor. Elendil and sons, no matter how noble and great they have been, were just one of his vassals, and
whatever land they acqired by the law should be subjected to legitimate ruler. In this light the Witch-King's claiming of Arnor doesn't look as far fetched moves, but as a purposeful determination to take what is rightfully belongs to him. First-Arnor, then-Gondor...
Sauron was quite content with such perspective.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

He did not need Earnur when he had such ace card in his sleeve as the Witch -king, one of the mightiest kings of Numenor. ...

Umm, I actually meant that the Witch-King could have sent Earnur as a wraith to Gondor to try and claim the throne from the Stewards , just as a cruel mockery. That would end badly for the wraith but a great fear and shame would ensue.

As for the WK claim to the throne, provided you are right and he WAS a king of Numenor, that didn't give him right to Gondor & Arnor thrones IMHO.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by gordis

Umm, I actually meant that the Witch-King could have sent Earnur as a wraith to Gondor to try and claim the throne from the Stewards , just as a cruel mockery. That would end badly for the wraith but a great fear and shame would ensue.

As for the WK claim to the throne, provided you are right and he WAS a king of Numenor, that didn't give him right to Gondor & Arnor thrones IMHO.

Actually, Aragorn had even less right to the throne of Gondor (reread Valandil's post) , all the same this did not stop him.
Why do you think that WK has to have higher moral standarts than his descendant?
And, oh, yes, he WAS the king of Numenor! Tar-Ciriatan, in particular.
How I came to such conclusion? By painstaking deductions and calculations, that brought my faint suspicions that Tolkien tried to camuflage this fact, but nevertheless left some mileposts leading to it.

[Butterbeer]

EDITED

[Small No-name]

Its not fair i like boremer he is one of my favorit caracters. But he is a little mad

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Small No-name

Its not fair i like boremer he is one of my favorit caracters. But he is a little mad

Wrong Boromir SNN.

Don't know how much you've read, but many first-time readers consider all the appendices in the back of LOTR as 'extra' stuff. However - some of us have found them to be filled with hints to all kinds of wonderful things. From there - we can go on to some of the other books.

The Boromir discussed in this thread was an ancient ancestor of the Boromir in LOTR proper - and he lived over 500 years before him - Middle-earth speaking, anyway.

Hope you'll be able to start following up on that. It gets even more fun.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by gordis

What was it that the Witch-King treatened to do to Eowyn? “ I will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye�. In other words it means: “I will stab you with a Morgul knife and you will become a wraith�. That is what the Morgul King usually did to those who hindered him. What do you think has become of Earnur, the last King of Gondor? Most likely he was not tortured to death, as it was believed in Gondor. The Witch King was too cruel to let an enemy escape to Mandos. IMHO Earnur has become a wraith and polished the Witch-King’s boots and mended his cloaks ever since.

Owww, Gordis! EOWYN is my favourite character! Do you really think the Witchy wanted tu turn her into a wraith?
And what would a woman wraith be used for?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Owww, Gordis! EOWYN is my favourite character! Do you really think the Witchy wanted tu turn her into a wraith?
And what would a woman wraith be used for?

Are you sure you want to discuss that? After all, isn't it a PG-13 forum?

[CrazySquirrel]

And here is another case when we need an R-rated subforum!

[Alcuin]

Surely if Boromir I the Steward had become a wraith, Tolkien would have mentioned it. He was not, after all, a mere chronicler of the history of Gondor and Arnor, but the maker of a tale, and while a chronicler – such as Barahir, grandson of Faramir (and thus a descendant of Boromir I) – might have had either political or dynastic cause to hide an ill fate befallen his forebear, Tolkien had none.

The dreadful doom Frodo faced after his injury on Weathertop might indeed have been brought about by the Morgul-knife alone, but let us not forget that when he was wounded, he was also wearing the Ring, and as Gandalf described the situation to him,

You were in gravest peril while you wore the Ring, for then you were half in the wraith-world yourself, and they might have seized you. You could see them, and they could see you.

Of course, just before this exposition, Gandalf also states,

They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like that are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith…

I think we must suppose that the purpose of the Morgul-knife was to kill by turning a mortal into a wraith; on the other hand, Aragorn knew a treatment for this, and although it was far less than perfect for Frodo, we must also suppose that Aragorn was able to work little more than first aid in the dark on the Road, pursued by foes who expected his patient to fade into their clutches at any time. Indeed, both Aragorn and the Ringwraiths may well have been surprised by Frodo’s resistance, for as Gandalf said,

I have known strong warriors of the Big People who would have quickly been overcome by the splinter, which you bore for seventeen days.

And upon the removal of the splinter by Elrond, who found it, Frodo was out of danger. When Glorfindel ran his hand over Frodo’s wound, it is likely he was also searching for just such a fragment of the blade.

Boromir I was wounded by a Morgul weapon of some sort. Let us suppose it was a Morgul-knife like the one used upon Frodo in Weathertop in every respect. Are we then to believe that the Healers of Gondor knew nothing of these weapons? They had already been at war with Minas Morgul for about 500 years; surely they had seen such grievous injuries before. Moreover, the folk of Gondor had been in communication with their kinsmen in Arnor, which had been at war with Angmar for some 700 years before that, and they, too were subjected to such attacks. It must be likely that some report of these weapons had been carried south, and probably some information on what remedies were required to overcome them. At the very least, Eärnur himself had led the expedition of Gondor to the succor of Arvedui at the end of the kingdom of Arnor/Arthedain, and some information would have returned with that force to the south kingdom.

I think that if Boromir the Steward was spared an unlife or undeath of lichdom, we may suppose that either the weapon failed to leave a splinter in his wound, or else, as seems more likely, he was fortunate enough for it to be found and removed, although it shortened his life considerably. It seems to have been the nature of these weapons to shorten life, even if they were properly removed from the injured person. Consider Aragorn’s discussion of Faramir’s injuries in the Houses of Healing:

He is nearly spent. … But this comes not from the wound. See! that is healing. Had he been smitten by some dart of the Nazgûl, as you thought, he would have died that night. This hurt was given by some Southron arrow, I would guess.

As for the Witch-king’s threatening words to Éowyn,

Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.

Clearly some necromancy is implied here, too: “He will not slay thee … He will bear thee away … beyond all darkness…� But there is also implied a considerable degree of torment, “the houses of lamentation, ... where thy flesh shall be devoured, � and a length of time required to accomplish this nefarious act. Such a fate might indeed have befallen Eärnur, but it is unlikely that had he returned to Minas Tirith, the Council of Gondor would have submitted the Kingdom to his rule, or that anyone in the Kingdom would have supported a claim of any wraith-Eärnur to sit upon the throne, much less of a wraith-Boromir as Ruling Steward.

In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath. Boromir son of Denethor (after whom Boromir of the Nine Walkers was later named) defeated them and regained Ithilien; but Osgiliath was finally ruined, and its great stone-bridge was broken. No people dwelt there afterwards. Boromir was a great captain, and even the Witch-king feared him. He was noble and fair of face, a man strong in body and in will, but he received a Morgul-wound in that war which shortened his days, and he became shrunken with pain and died twelve years after his father.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Actually, Aragorn had even less right to the throne of Gondor (reread Valandil's post) , all the same this did not stop him.
...
And, oh, yes, he WAS the king of Numenor! Tar-Ciriatan, in particular.

It is highly unlikely that the Witch-king was Tar-Ciryatan, who appears to have surrendered his life like a good Númenórean in 2035 of the Second Age. The Witch-king might well have been his brother, however – my personal opinion is that this is who he was in life. (See my musings on that topic in my essay, “Origins of the Nazgûl and the Downfall of Númenor�.) As such, the Witch-king had no legitimate claim on the thrones of either Númenor or on the Dúnedain kingdoms, something that no doubt irked him considerably. He does seem to have been intent on obtaining the throne of either Arnor or Gondor, which might partly explain his exultations in his confrontation with Gandalf at the gate of Minas Tirith. Certainly after the fall of Fornost, he seems to have installed himself as king of the Northern Kingdom.

In any case, Elendil the Tall ruled Arnor and Gondor as the legitimate heir of Silmariën, daughter and eldest child of Tar-Elendil the fourth king of Númenor, mother of Valandil the first Lord of Andúnië, and the rightful heir of the senior noble house of Númenor second only to the House of Elros (which had long since ceased to be ruled by patrilineal descent, there having been three ruling Queens, a matter of settled Númenórean law that formed the only one part of the basis of Arvedui’s claim on behalf of his marriage to FÃ*riel to claim the throne of Gondor). As such, Elendil could rightly claim descent from the elder line of the descendants of Tar-Elendil, his forefather and namesake, a fact not lost upon the Númenóreans themselves when their island kingdom was still intact. Andúnië was not a royal fiefdom that could be taken away by the ruling house: it represented, in all likelihood, the old line of the chieftains of the First House of the Edain, while the ruling house was properly descended of the old kings of the Third House. (Elrond, by the way, was technically a member of the Third House of the Edain, since he and his brother Elros were the paternal grandsons of Tuor, who upon the death of Turin became de facto leader of the Third House.)

The Witch-king had never been King of Númenor: that seems plain enough, since otherwise he would have remained king for the rest of the Second Age, which would presumably been considerably shortened under misrule by a Ringwraith. He had no claim upon the thrones of the Dúnedain kingdoms, either from any prior claim out of Númenor, or from any claim he might have as ruler of the Dúnedain in Middle-earth: he was not their rightful king. He might have wanted to be their king, and he might have (and seems to have) claimed to be their king. He even ruled the territory of Arnor for a while by virtue of conquest (first in Rhudaur, then in Arthedain and Cardolan), but he never ruled the Dúnedain, who were his sworn enemies.

The Chieftains of the Dúnedain never relinquished their claim to the throne of Gondor, despite the fact that the Council of Gondor chose Eärnil II to be king instead of Arvedui. They had neither the strength nor the inclination to press such the claim after the fall of the North Kingdom, however. The claim was based not only upon FÃ*riel’s being the only surviving child of Ondohir, but also upon Arvedui’s descent from Isildur, who was the High King of the Númenóreans in Middle-earth and hence senior to the throne of Gondor before the descendents of Meneldil son of Anárion and Isildur's nephew, a seemingly legitimate claim which Mardil the Steward led the Council to flatly reject. Eärnil’s message to Arvedui was softer, and he sent his own son to the succor of Arvedui when he was able, although it was too late to save the smaller kingdom.

By the way, it is not often noted, but although the Stewards of Gondor were chosen from the descendants of Húrin of Emyn Arnen, the position of Steward was not hereditary until Mardil’s day. No one but Eärnil had the authority to make such a powerful position hereditary, since it restricted the political freedom of future kings to choose whom they would as Steward. Does anyone smell a backroom deal? A good reason for Denethor II to show a little extra sensitivity to any claim by Aragorn, a.k.a. Thorondor, to the throne his ancestor denied him? A new king might indeed revoke the hereditary status of the position of not only Denethor’s house, but the Stewardship of Denethor himself, a point not lost upon either Faramir or Aragorn:

Faramir met Aragorn in the midst of those there assembled, and he knelt, and said, ’The last Steward of Gondor begs leave to surrender his office.’ And he held out a white rod; but Aragorn took the rod and gave it back, saying: ‘That office is not ended, and it shall be thine and thy heirs’ as long as my line shall last. Do now thy office!’

Which goes to show that Aragorn was no fool: he struck the same deal as Eärnil, and he received the throne.

[CrazySquirrel]

What a great post, Alcuin! Indeed, no "sapling" are you.

As for the theories on the WK identity, a new thread has split from this one, grace to Valandil's timely intervention. http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=12230&page=1
It is in the LOTR Books forum. There you will find Olmer's arguments for his theory. Your theory has been referred to, I believe, if not discussed. Surely, your theory deserves discussing, and you would do well to post it there or in a new thread. The only problem is that Olmer seems to have disappeared.

I am very impressed by your idea of a backroom deal between Mardil and Earnil. I believe, nobody has thought about it before. You must be right.

Speaking of a similar dark story, I am afraid Mardil was not too eager to dissuade the King Earnur from his visit to Minas Morgul. Mardil's position was already hereditary and Mardil was personally interested in getting rid of the King, especially in such a way that would leave his fate unknown, so no new king could be chosen.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

I am very impressed by your idea of a backroom deal between Mardil and Earnil. I believe, nobody has thought about it before. You must be right.

You know, I came back by and thought about this, and I think I have to reconsider. I’ve thought about it for months, but when I read your post, it suddenly occurred to me that after the death – or MIA – of Eärnur, the Council of Gondor might have conferred the inheritance of the Stewardship on Mardil’s descendants to better insure good order and maintain stability within the kingdom of Gondor "until the King returns." I think that this solution makes better sense, and is far simpler, that inferring some political dealing on the part of Eärnil. On the other hand, the one might well have led to the other, mightn’t it? I wonder if there are papers lying about at Oxford or Marquette that might shed light on what Tolkien intended here…

Still, no matter what the reason for his hereditary position, Denethor II wasn’t at all pleased with the return of Aragorn to Gondor. Tolkien implies in Appendix I that he wasn’t at all displeased when Thorondor left Gondor, and that some observers (Imrahil, his brother-in-law, perhaps?) later believed that Denethor had discovered or somehow determined who Thorondor really was.

‘But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool! I am the Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.’

‘What then would you have,’ said Gandalf, ‘if your will could have its way?’

‘I would have things as they were in all the days of my life,’ said Denethor, ‘and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard’s pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated.’

[CrazySquirrel]

Alcuin, your letter has made me check the Appendices.

The Stewards The House of the Stewards was called the House of Húrin, for they were descendants of the Steward of King Minardil (1621-34), Húrin of Emyn Arnen, a man of high Númenorean race. After his day the kings had always chosen their stewards from among his descendants; and after the days of Pelendur the Stewardship became hereditary as a kingship, from father to son or nearest kin.

Stewards of Gondor. The House of Húrin: Pelendur 1998. He ruled for a year after the fall of Ondoher, and advised Gondor to reject Arvedui's claim to the crown. Vorondil the Hunter 2029. Mardil Voronwë ‘the Steadfast', the first of the Ruling Stewards. His successors ceased to use High-elven names.

So, you see, you were right that the stewardship became hereditary when the Steward (Pelendur, not Mardil) rejected Arvedui's claim to the crown and supported Earnil's. The backdoor deal was VERY likely. After all, after Ondoher's death, Pelendur actually ruled Gondor for a year, and the final decision was his. Earnil must have rewarded the Steward for his choice.

Moreover, there is another possible facet of the story. I remember reading in the "Peoples of ME" that the Stewards were connected by blood ties with the Royal house, though I can't get the quote now. It seems reasonable to suppose that the Stewards were descended from Anarion, but their bloodline was not so pure as that of the Kings, i.e. it included at least one woman. The Kings had to marry their daughters to some nobles in Gondor, and Hurin's house was the noblest of all. But the Stewards could not claim the father-to son (patrilineal) descent required by law. So, by supporting the patrilineal descent over simple promogeniture, Pelendur was able to effectively reject Arvedui's claim, but by doing so, he also cut all future possibilities for HIS OWN line to claim the throne. Indeed, not a single one of the Stewards ever tried to do that. Pelendur must have fully understood the consequences. And the reward for his decision was the hereditary stewardship.

As for Mardil's case, it is stated that Mardil was able to dissuade King Earnur from accepting the Witch-King's challenge in 2043. Probably he still hoped the King would marry and get a heir. Why didn't Mardil stop the King in 2050? Because, I think, Mardil has had enough time to ponder on the situation in those 7 years. The King had no heirs, not was he likely to get any. So what would have happened after his natural death? A strife, most probably, with different relatives warring over the throne, Castamir's heirs probably intervening, Arvedui's children reentering their claim and so on. Castamir's heirs and Arvedui's children would have had the rightful claims by the patrilineal law. What will be the fate of the realm and of the Stewards? Quite a bleak perspective, either war or passing of the throne to the North line. Arvedui's children were likely to retract the hereditary Stewardship in vengeance for Pelendur's decision. (Actually this decision proved to be fatal for Arvedui and the North Kingdom) To avoid all this, Earnur's MIA was a perfect solution. No one had seen the King die, so Steward ruled rightfully "until the King returns". At first this meant only "Until Earnur returns", then the phrase has become more and more otherwordly.

[Butterbeer]

I suspect denethor did not speak as did the vast majority of Gondorians when he decried the lineage of the northern line.

Where do Mooters stand on this?

I always had the impression Tolkien was kinda supporting the north (as do i) and that the lineage was actually ( although the Southern realm of gondor was by far the larger and more powerful) the most pure and noble ... the North Kindom of Arnor was of course originally THE main Numenorean pinnacle...

we can understand why at times they rejected the claims of the North, but when Aragorn returns as himself, the true father to son decendent of Elendil there is no dispute. (of course he and his fellowship have just defeated sauron against all odds and he has the support of all key figures at this time anyway)

Interesting that despite some initial mis-givings at the Council of Elrond, Boromir (II) took to Aragorn and accepted him as Leader and as the heir of kings ...

"Go to Minas Tirith and save my people ..." (being but one)

Wonder what Valandil says? Has anyone read his letters of Firiel?

Well worth checking out and his later writings, 'Tales of Nolduryon' too.

(of course as CS might tell you, in terms of fellowships and the effects of morgul blades ... theres some intersting stuff in the fellowship of the ringwraiths RPG also ...)

[CrazySquirrel]

Well, BB, instead of our Fellowship promotion, you better tell what is your opinion on the 1. Possibility of a backdoor deal between Pelendur and Earnil and 2. Possibility of Mardil the Steward deliberately sending The Last King Earnur to his death in Morgul.

BTW, what do you think has happened in Morgul, BB?

[Butterbeer]

Inside knowledge my dear CS ...couldn't possibly reveal it.

Possibility of Mardil the Steward deliberately sending The Last King Earnur to his death in Morgul:

Not for me this one.


... er.. i'd actually have to read the whole thread, but i'd need some serious convincing.


and that wasn't promotion: just an apt reference! ...

very well written post though, i must say.

[Beregond]

So, Boromir I received a Morgul-wound and lived for 14 years? How was that possible? Frodo was expected to die within a few days after his wound! Did Boromir get medical (magical) help? And from whom? Aragorn and Glorfindel were both unable to heal Frodo, only Elrond was capable of it.

Does it Actualy say anywhere that it was Elrond who healed Frodo or do we all just asume it was him? All we know is that he got taken back to Rivendale and was healed.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

A shard of the blade broke off when WK stabbed Frodo. I assume that it didn't happen in this case, and that he was stabbed, but no shard broke off.

[Alcuin]

I interpreted that to mean that Boromir the Steward was stabbed by a Morgul knife, he did suffer whatever the wound delivered, which quite possibly included a shard of the knife, just as Frodo did. Boromir’s splinter was removed, but he lived thereafter in pain, his physical stamina was seriously reduced, and he died young (at that time) for a member of the House of Húrin (of Gondor).

The splinter from the Morgul knife was not necessarily fatal if it could be removed. Aragorn, Glorfindel, Gandalf, and Elrond were all aware of this, probably from their experiences in the wars between Angmar and the Dúnedain of Arnor. It is likely that the Dúnedain of Gondor were aware of it, too, even though their ability to deal with such weapons might have been considerably less than that in the North.

And yes, Gandalf explicitly says that Elrond found the splinter and removed it.