What is the Eye of Sauron?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

to answer TD...
1. i feel that denethor did not lose his wisdom until after his ensnarement by sauron
2. i feel sauron was indeed searching, franticly perhaps, for the ring, it was the key to his power before his return to mordor, and hence regaining the nine

your 1 and 2 i agree with gordis, makes sense, i feel

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

2. i feel sauron was indeed searching, franticly perhaps, for the ring, it was the key to his power before his return to mordor, and hence regaining the nine

As do I. I just think that that wasn't the first thing on his mind when he set himself up in Dol Guldur. He needed to recover his strentgh. IMO finding the Ring was the long-term goal.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I don't think Sauron physically sees people with his "eye", I think he perceives their spirit. Maybe like the Nazguls, Sauron's only half operating in the physical world. That's why wearing the Ring makes Frodo easier to find - he becomes much more a part of the spiritual world. Which would explain why he had trouble finding Frodo Ringless.

It is a very interesting observation, Nurvingiel. Actually you may well be right. Now I wonder, could Sauron even use the Palantir normally - to see things of physical world at a distance? Palantir was not a device used for shifting from the unseen world to a normal one. Perhaps his vision, even through the Palantir, was reduced to things of spirit world: he could see wraiths, ringwielders, High Elves, but he were unable to see the approach of the Rohan army or that the Umbar fleet was carrying the Gray company? Perhaps he could use the Palantir only to communicate with other stones and read the thoughts of Saruman and Denethor that contained visions of the physical world that they were able to see in their Palantiri as mortal men? Sounds confusing, even to myself.

[Nurvingiel]

Well thanks Gordis! I feel that's quite a compliment - you have a lot of great insights.

I'm afraid I don't know enough about the Palintir to comment on that. I would agree that Sauron probably wouldn't use it in the same way that Denethor did.

On the other hand, if he couldn't use the Palintir to see the physical world, how would he manipulate what Denethor saw in it?

[Gordis]

Thank you for your compliment, Nurvingiel!

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

On the other hand, if he couldn't use the Palintir to see the physical world, how would he manipulate what Denethor saw in it?

I think that while Denethor was looking in the Palantir on the physical world, Sauron saw much of Denethor's mind with his Eye. In Denethor's mind Sauron saw the pictures of physical word that he could interpret. Sauron was even able to select the suitable ones and permit Denethor to process them, while the undesirable (potentially cheering ones) he removed. Vague, I know and difficult to formulate.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

manipulation of the mind, much as derren brown does on 'trick of the mind' perhaps...

[The Wizard from Milan]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I don't think of the Eye of Sauron as being in anyway an actual eye. I think it's how people refer to Sauron's will, which is powerful enough to perceive his enemies at a distance.

Let's take the situation on Amon Hen, (which I sketchily recall). Frodo was wearing the Ring, making him much easier for Sauron to perceive. Frodo only avoided discovery because Gandalf, now the White, strove with Sauron and distracted him. Gandalf also urged Frodo to take the Ring off, which he did, making him harder to find.

I don't think Sauron physically sees people with his "eye", I think he perceives their spirit. Maybe like the Nazguls, Sauron's only half operating in the physical world. That's why wearing the Ring makes Frodo easier to find - he becomes much more a part of the spiritual world. Which would explain why he had trouble finding Frodo Ringless.

I totally agree with Nurv: Sauron's "eye" is Sauron's will or mind; he does not see things with his eyes when he uses the "eye" (confusig I know), when he needs to see something with his eyes, he uses the palantir

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

I totally agree with Nurv: Sauron's "eye" is Sauron's will or mind; he does not see things with his eyes when he uses the "eye" (confusig I know), when he needs to see something with his eyes, he uses the palantir

And what is your opinion: does he see (really see physical word) with the palantir? or does he need a mortal intermediary like Saruman or Denethor?

[The Wizard from Milan]

Originally Posted by gordis

And what is your opinion: does he see (really see physical word) with the palantir? or does he need a mortal intermediary like Saruman or Denethor?

My personal opinion is that when he looks in the palaintir he sees the reality as is (subject to the constraint of the palantiri)

[Gordis]

Well, maybe you are right. Sauron was no nazgul, after all, perhaps he was fully present in the physical word (as well as in the spirit one) and had normal eyesight, not the nazgul-eyesight.

But then, the characteristics of the Palantiri apply also to the Eye, which makes sence. For instance, the range of small stones (like the Ithil one), if I recall correctly the UT , was equal to the distance M.Ithil-Orthank. So Sauron was unable to follow the fellowship while they were moving from Rivendell to Lorien. And Amon Hen was within the range already. Interesting...

[Nurvingiel]

And at Amon Hen, Sauron probably still thought that the Ring was going to Minis Tirith.

But if at Amon Hen, they were within Sauron's range, then how did he lose track of them after the Emyn Muil? The Nazgul was practically on top of them there, and that scene suggests to me that Sauron had more or less been able to follow Frodo and Sam that far.

However, he seems to lose their trail in the Dead Marshes, because though they see Nazgul overhead, they aren't too near. Maybe he was looking for them further west, still assuming that they were going to Minis Tirith. Though the Eye wouldn't be hindered by difficult terrain, he still would have to know where to look.

This would also explain why he didn't spot them in Mordor - why would he look there?

Another possibility is that Sauron saw all spirits at once with the Eye, the dead and the living. If there was no distinctions, Frodo, Sam and Gollum wouldn't stand out in the Marshes.

[The Wizard from Milan]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

And at Amon Hen, Sauron probably still thought that the Ring was going to Minis Tirith.

But if at Amon Hen, they were within Sauron's range, then how did he lose track of them after the Emyn Muil? The Nazgul was practically on top of them there, and that scene suggests to me that Sauron had more or less been able to follow Frodo and Sam that far.

However, he seems to lose their trail in the Dead Marshes, because though they see Nazgul overhead, they aren't too near. Maybe he was looking for them further west, still assuming that they were going to Minis Tirith. Though the Eye wouldn't be hindered by difficult terrain, he still would have to know where to look.

This would also explain why he didn't spot them in Mordor - why would he look there?

Another possibility is that Sauron saw all spirits at once with the Eye, the dead and the living. If there was no distinctions, Frodo, Sam and Gollum wouldn't stand out in the Marshes.

As you say, the fact that you can look does not mean that you know where to look. Moreover Sauron was distracted by Aragorn. I can't remember the exact timeline: where was Aragorn when Frodo was in the dead marshes?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

And at Amon Hen, Sauron probably still thought that the Ring was going to Minis Tirith.

But if at Amon Hen, they were within Sauron's range, then how did he lose track of them after the Emyn Muil? The Nazgul was practically on top of them there, and that scene suggests to me that Sauron had more or less been able to follow Frodo and Sam that far.

However, he seems to lose their trail in the Dead Marshes, because though they see Nazgul overhead, they aren't too near. Maybe he was looking for them further west, still assuming that they were going to Minis Tirith. Though the Eye wouldn't be hindered by difficult terrain, he still would have to know where to look.

This would also explain why he didn't spot them in Mordor - why would he look there?

Another possibility is that Sauron saw all spirits at once with the Eye, the dead and the living. If there was no distinctions, Frodo, Sam and Gollum wouldn't stand out in the Marshes.

The Nazgûl probably had difficult keeping up with them in Emyn Muil because of the terrain. It was tree-ish and rocky. The Nazgûl probably knew what genereal area the Ring was, but they couldn't pinpoint the actual location. Also there was the distraction of Merry and Pippin. Grishnakh said that a Nazgûl was waiting on the east side of the river, which must mean that there task was known to Sauron. The Nazgûl were most likely waiting for news or hobbits from the orcs, but got tired of waiting so returned to Mordor via the Dead Marshes.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

And at Amon Hen, Sauron probably still thought that the Ring was going to Minis Tirith.

I believe, that the Amon Hen incident came as a complete surprise to Sauron. He knew that the Ring had reached Lorien and he must have believed that it would remain hidden there. He has never thought of Orodruin being the Quest’s destination. Why would Sauron suppose that Galadriel will let the Ring go anywhere? Minas Tirith? But would Galadriel give the Ring to Men of Gondor? Never! In this Sauron was right. So he was not expecting any move out of Lorien at all.

Originally Posted by Telcontar Dunadan

Grishnakh said that a Nazgûl was waiting on the east side of the river, which must mean that there task was known to Sauron. The Nazgûl were most likely waiting for news or hobbits from the orcs, but got tired of waiting so returned to Mordor via the Dead Marshes.

And again (like in the Barlog tread and Isildur tread) the strange events at Part Galen become the key to the problem!

Well, let us analyze the events “from the other side”: What has happened before Part Galen? On the 16.02 the fellowship left Lorien. Their departure was observed by Gollum from the other bank of Anduin. I believe there were some orc-spies on the other bank as well, on duty watching over the hostile Lorien. It were Dol Guldur orcs, not Mordor ones, just look at the map. The orcs must have brought the news to the Master of Dol Guldur – Khamul, fresh from Barad-Dur rehab clinic where he was “healed” after his drowning in Bruinen. It must have taken about 2 days for the orcs to deliver the news, so the company was far downstream already. The news was of a mixed company leaving Lorien by boats and going south, a very unusual event to be sure, given the “friendly ” relations Galadriel kept with her southern neighbors. Khamul mounted his fell beast and came to investigate, mastering all the orcs along the bank and sending them in pursuit. It is likely that there were some orcs (about 40) further south guarding the road that flanks Rauros on the East side. Those Khamul sent over the river on makeshift rafts or boats to make an ambush at Part Galen. But it is unlikely that Khamul warned Sauron of the happenings, as nobody thought that the company was carrying the Ring. Otherwise Sauron would have sent all the Nine to Rauros.
On the 23 the fellowship was attacked at the rapids of Sarn Gebir. Khamul flew overhead, he must have sensed the Ring’s presence then, but his beast was shot by Legolas. Here the matters became difficult, as, without the beast, there was no way now to send the news to Mordor and ask for help in time. There was also no way for the nazgul to cross the river: of the Nine Khamul was the most affected by water-phobia (see UT), he has nearly fallen into a river AGAIN and must have been badly shaken, moreover he had no special trained horse to carry him on the other bank. He must have told the orcs something like : “The Masster doess not allow usss to ssshow ourselvess on the other bank” and told them to bring hobbits back, hinting something about the Ring. So the poor Mordor orcs were left alone and, being outnumbered, had to leave the captive hobbits to Isengarders. Without the Fell Beast being slain, Khamul would have had no excuse not to show up in Rohan. I believe the arrival of a single nazgul would have been enough to make the orcs turn from Isengard to Mordor.

Meanwhile Sauron must have been unaware of all these happenings, believing the Ring was still in Lorien. Then what a surprise! On the 25.02 at Amon Hen someone puts the ring on. Sauron almost pins Frodo down with his Eye (or his palantir). But then, it seems, by cheer luck, he loses Frodo. The fact that he could not follow Frodo or the other hobbits carried to Isengard supports, I believe, Nurvingiel’s opinion that he did not SEE normally the physical world even with the Palantir. So Sauron had no idea where the Ring was till the 5 of March when he saw Pippin in the Palantir. Then he thought that Saruman has got the Ring. After Aragorn had looked into the Palantir (6.03), Sauron believed that Aragorn had got it. By this time Frodo is already at the Morannon (5.03)

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

But if at Amon Hen, they were within Sauron's range, then how did he lose track of them after the Emyn Muil? The Nazgul was practically on top of them there, and that scene suggests to me that Sauron had more or less been able to follow Frodo and Sam that far. However, he seems to lose their trail in the Dead Marshes, because though they see Nazgul overhead, they aren't too near.

Now about the Nazgul. During the 10 days (25.02-5.03) of doubts, Sauron must have sent several Nazgul out to patrol the area around Amon Hen on both banks. And the Nazgul, as usual, found nothing. One passed right above Frodo at Emin Muil (29.02), another in Dead Marches “wheeled and returned, passing lower now, right above them” (1.03). Actually the nazgul must have felt the ring's presence! But nothing has happened .
It seems Gollum was wrong saying `Wraiths on wings! … They see everything, everything. Nothing can hide from them…And they tell Him everything.
Well, either they do not see or they do not tell.
Olmer was right that Nazgul behaviour looks suspicious during the early stages of the hunt for the Ring. I can add that it looks no less suspicious later on.

[Nurvingiel]

Wow, awesome post Gordis! You really knitted the different parties of orcs and activities of the Nazgul together brilliantly. You even have dates! That was great.

I agree with your analysis of the Amon Hen and Parth Galen goings on. It didn't occur to me before how Sauron might perceive Galadriel's attitude of the Ring. (And he was nearly right! We'll never know exactly how close she was to giving in to temptation.)

I wonder what would have happened had Legolas not shot the Nazgul's fell beast? Probably yet another close call.

About the last part, I think Gollum was paranoid because of his torture in Mordor, and fair enough too. I think, as I said before, that it's an issue as not seeing rather than not telling. Sauron probably wanted to leave poor Gollum with the very distinct impression that there was nothing his lieutenants wouldn't miss, so he might as well report all his information.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Gordis, I disagree with you on three things there.
1. I do not think (unless it states somewhere else) that after his departure to search for the ring he did not return to Dol Guldur, as after the Brunien disaster he went back to Barad-Dur, to have his 'wraith re-hab'. I believe he helped in patrolling ME.
2. I think that if there were orcs in Lorien they were more likely keeping tabs on Gollum. I think Sauron was sensible enough not to send troops into Lorien when Galadriel has the Ring in her grasp.
3. I disagree about Sauron and the palantir. Sauron is Maia, thus visible in both worlds. I doubt he needed the palantir to be able to see the physical word.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Gordis, I disagree with you on three things there.
1. I do not think (unless it states somewhere else) that after his departure to search for the ring he did not return to Dol Guldur, as after the Brunien disaster he went back to Barad-Dur, to have his 'wraith re-hab'. I believe he helped in patrolling ME.
2. I think that if there were orcs in Lorien they were more likely keeping tabs on Gollum. I think Sauron was sensible enough not to send troops into Lorien when Galadriel has the Ring in her grasp.
3. I disagree about Sauron and the palantir. Sauron is Maia, thus visible in both worlds. I doubt he needed the palantir to be able to see the physical word.

I agree with 3. ( am not filled in on 1 or 2 to make any call)
The idea Sauron is blind other than in the spirit world is absurd: we know of the Nazgul's sight limitations because their limited "normal" sight is referenced: there is no (correct me if i am wrong) description of Sauron being blind since the ring was cut from his finger: he evidentlly was NOT blind beforehand


also as he shows Denethor sights that make him despair via the palantir (the unassailable might of Mordor, the whole East in Motion etc etc it is a far stretch (as you yourself Gordis recognise i beleive in your posts): it is a far stretch indeed on very little or non existence eveidence to explain him being (blind to the normal physical world) to explain this by having Sauron perhaps controlling Denethor's mind to have him "see" these physical things he couldn't and extrapolate them from his mind so as then to see them himself and then WIPE Denethor's memory or not as deemed fit!

Denethor was not THAT weak of Mind even though he was no match for Sauron, anyway IMO.

I know you are merely posing the questions: and good they are too but i feel the Sauron-the-Blind-man act a bit far fetched and on very thin ice in terms of canonical or any other evidence.

[Gordis]

First of all, I am glad that you agree on Sauron's perception of Galadriel's attitude to the Ring. It is very important to the story that Sauron was not expecting any move out of Lorien at all. That was perhaps the reason for a month's delay in Lorien, apart from the fellowship needing to rest. Galadriel wanted Sauron's spies to become sure of the ring's whereabouts and lessen their vigilance.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

I know you are merely posing the questions: and good they are too but i feel the Sauron-the-Blind-man act a bit far fetched and on very thin ice in terms of canonical or any other evidence.

OK! I agree that logically he should be able to see the physical world, so I have nothing to oppose your arguments, Butterbeer, and yours, TD. I am only trying to understand how Sauron has lost track of Frodo and other hobbits when he nearly pinned them down on Amon Hen. Frodo has even put the ring on again less than an hour later!

Maybe Sau decided to take a bath again, just to relax from the tension, eh, Butterbeer?

Originally Posted by Telcontar Dunedain

1. I do not think (unless it states somewhere else) that after his departure to search for the ring he did not return to Dol Guldur, as after the Brunien disaster he went back to Barad-Dur, to have his 'wraith re-hab'. I believe he helped in patrolling ME.
2. I think that if there were orcs in Lorien they were more likely keeping tabs on Gollum. I think Sauron was sensible enough not to send troops into Lorien when Galadriel has the Ring in her grasp.

1. You mean that Khamul has not returned to DG after his rehab? Well, we do not know for sure, but I believe he had. Remember the fellowship looking from Cerin Amroth to Dol Guldur? Haldir said: " We fear that now it is inhabited again, and with power sevenfold. A black cloud lies often over it of late." Knowing the Ring was in Lorien, Sauron must have swelled Dol Guldur's garrison, preparing to strike on Lorien. It would be natural to send the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur back to his fortress. As for the other nazgul, they just stayed in M. Morgul, doing nothing, so Khamul was not needed there.

2. No, not in Lorien, sorry if I didn't make it clear. I meant that there were Dol Guldur orcs watching from the other bank of ANDUIN. There had to be orc guards and spies on the Eastern bank. Yes, they were far away, but that explains why they were unable to describe the company properly. They saw three boats going downstream and people in them, but hardly any details. Had they reported FOUR HOBBITS, Khamul (quite allergic to hobbits by this time ) should have connected them with the Ring immediately and flown directly to Mordor to warn Sauron.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I wonder what would have happened had Legolas not shot the Nazgul's fell beast? Probably yet another close call.

Most probably Khamul would have come to Rohan on his fell beast, scared all the orcs senseless and carried the hobbits to Barad Dur where they would have told everything they knew. Unless there really was an order of Sauron not allowing the nazgul to go to the other bank. Then Khamul would do nothing, IMHO.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

About the last part, I think Gollum was paranoid because of his torture in Mordor, and fair enough too. I think, as I said before, that it's an issue as not seeing rather than not telling. Sauron probably wanted to leave poor Gollum with the very distinct impression that there was nothing his lieutenants wouldn't miss, so he might as well report all his information.

Gollum was paranoid for sure, but still…The facts do look suspicious. You really think that not a single one of the Nazgul passing overhead has sensed the Ring? Has not smelled the warm blood in the desert Marches? And take another example, later on. The Witch-King in the Morgul vale clearly sensed the ring's presence, though he was very far from Frodo. And what? He stopped for a time, looked around and then went on. Don't you think he could at least send some orcs to look around immediately? Or send a nazgul to fly around? Or he could warn Sauron and leave the matter to him. But no.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by gordis

1. You mean that Khamul has not returned to DG after his rehab? Well, we do not know for sure, but I believe he had. Remember the fellowship looking from Cerin Amroth to Dol Guldur? Haldir said: " We fear that now it is inhabited again, and with power sevenfold. A black cloud lies often over it of late." Knowing the Ring was in Lorien, Sauron must have swelled Dol Guldur's garrison, preparing to strike on Lorien. It would be natural to send the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur back to his fortress. As for the other nazgul, they just stayed in M. Morgul, doing nothing, so Khamul was not needed there.

2. No, not in Lorien, sorry if I didn't make it clear. I meant that there were Dol Guldur orcs watching from the other bank of ANDUIN. There had to be orc guards and spies on the Eastern bank. Yes, they were far away, but that explains why they were unable to describe the company properly. They saw three boats going downstream and people in them, but hardly any details. Had they reported FOUR HOBBITS, Khamul (quite allergic to hobbits by this time ) should have connected them with the Ring immediately and flown directly to Mordor to warn Sauron.

I think that Khamul was patrolling the Anduin instead of being stationed at Dol Guldur. By the time he had been re-cloaked after his 'swimming lesson' in the Brunien the Ring was already passing near Caradhras. So instead of sending Khamul back to Dol Guldur he sent him to follow to the Ring, that way he would be reasonably near Dol Guldur if any assault was made against it. When the Company entered Lorien he decided to wait on the East Bank as hovering over Lorien for a Month may be a little tiring for his Fell Beast and a little dangerous with the Bows of the Galadhrim.

[Gordis]

So you think that Sauron expected the Ring to be moved further from Lorien. Where to?