Gandalf's second staff

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But Saruman took his at the end of the Wizard Fight.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Valandil

The books don't explicitly say that he lost them at those two times... but I can't imagine Saruman letting him take it up to the top of Orthance... and I don't see how he could have it still after the events of fighting the Balrog and the things that happened to him afterwards. Nor is it mentioned that someone else in the fellowship picked it up for him at Moria and gave it back to him when he returned.

You said you can't see how he could have had his staff after the fall in Moria and durring imprisonment on Orthanc but in the films and in the book Gandalf retains his sword Glamdring! I think if Gandalg can manage to hold on to his sword then he can certainly hold on to his primary "weapon", his staff.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

You said you can't see how he could have had his staff after the fall in Moria and durring imprisonment on Orthanc but in the films and in the book Gandalf retains his sword Glamdring! I think if Gandalg can manage to hold on to his sword then he can certainly hold on to his primary "weapon", his staff.

Very interesting observation. I admit I have forgotten about Glamdring. It looks like that persons that are more-than-men (maiar, ringwraiths) can carry things while in the shadow world. Sauron, it seems, managed to retrieve the One from the Fall of Numenor, when his body perished. The ringwraiths while they were traveling through Anorien UNCLAD and unmounted and invisible to eyes (UT) were not weaponless, I believe.

So perhaps the spirit of Gandalf carried Glamdring and the staff in the shadow world and then made them reappear again in the real world of light.

Hmm, not very convincing, if I say so myself...

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Originally Posted by gordis

Very interesting observation. I admit I have forgotten about Glamdring. It looks like that persons that are more-than-men (maiar, ringwraiths) can carry things while in the shadow world. Sauron, it seems, managed to retrieve the One from the Fall of Numenor, when his body perished. The ringwraiths while they were traveling through Anorien UNCLAD and unmounted and invisible to eyes (UT) were not weaponless, I believe.

So perhaps the spirit of Gandalf carried Glamdring and the staff in the shadow world and then made them reappear again in the real world of light.

Hmm, not very convincing, if I say so myself...

Correct me if i am wrong but does it not say that Sauron left the one ring on Middle-Earth when he was taken to Numenor? Although I don't fully concure with your theory Gordis there still is the point that Gandalf did always have Glamdring, which means that he could very well have always had the same staff.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

In the movie, when Gandalf and Saruman meet for the first time. Saruman takes away Gandalf's staff.
But after Gandalf is freed by the eagle Gandalf has a staff identical to the fist one. How did that happen? Did Gandalf make a new one identical to the first one?
(I know that in the book there is no suggestion on Gandalf being deprived of his staff, I am just asking from the point of view of the movie internal coherence)

Finally! It's about time somebody noticed this staff bussiness.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Correct me if i am wrong but does it not say that Sauron left the one ring on Middle-Earth when he was taken to Numenor? Although I don't fully concure with your theory Gordis there still is the point that Gandalf did always have Glamdring, which means that he could very well have always had the same staff.

HD, I start a new thread in ME forum as it is the books problem, not the movie.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I was simply saying that in the films there is no explanation as to why Gandalf loses his staves or where he gets his new ones. The whole tripple staff business is all Peter Jackson's creation, in the books i don't think it ever mentions Gandalf loosing his staff. Furthermore even in the films Gandalf retains his sword Glamdring even untill the end. Soooo my point is simply that if Gandalf can manage to hold on to his sword why could he not hold on to his staff as well?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

I was simply saying that in the films there is no explanation as to why Gandalf loses his staves or where he gets his new ones. The whole tripple staff business is all Peter Jackson's creation, in the books i don't think it ever mentions Gandalf loosing his staff. Furthermore even in the films Gandalf retains his sword Glamdring even untill the end. Soooo my point is simply that if Gandalf can manage to hold on to his sword why could he not hold on to his staff as well?

You see, I am not very interested in bugs of PJ's movie.
But the double-staff is a BOOK problem.

At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand

.
Therefore I decided to move the discussion in ME section.

[durinsbane2244]

hear hear! that was a very confusing bit in the movie, though i suppose tolkien left it out in the book because he really didnt need it in. and he never mentioned the staff being taken, though that gives more questions that have been said already. BUT, tolkien never even says that gandalf has a new staff when he becomes white, I THINK, though i have a nagging suspision he does. . . .anyway. . . uh. . .the whole staff thing is screwed. . . .my head hurts . . . .

[Manveru]

maybe saruman didnt think the sword wasnt of any value when he imprisoned gandalf in orthanc so he didnt take it. meaning that he didnt think that gandalf could do him any harm with it, he was much too powerful a wizard after all to be hurt by a mere sword

[Spock]

Well, he had new robes, a new name (remember he wasn't sure about his own) so why not a new staff.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

After reading Gordis' last post i stand corrected that it does indeed say that Gandalf's first staff was lost. However it does not state in the book if he ever lost a staff in Orthanc, and in the film never explains how he got it back or forged a new one. The staff of Gandalf the white, while understandable and even plausible, is not confirmed by the book either, unless i am mistaken...(gordis?) i do not think it mentions Gandalf's staff after the events of Khazad'dum.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

After reading Gordis' last post i stand corrected that it does indeed say that Gandalf's first staff was lost. However it does not state in the book if he ever lost a staff in Orthanc, and in the film never explains how he got it back or forged a new one. The staff of Gandalf the white, while understandable and even plausible, is not confirmed by the book either, unless i am mistaken...(gordis?) i do not think it mentions Gandalf's staff after the events of Khazad'dum.

Yes, it does, HD, in the Hall of Theoden: 'The staff in the hand of a wizard may be more than a prop for age' said Háma. He looked hard at the ash-staff on which Gandalf leaned". It looks like Gandalf had a new ash staff.

And Gandalf knocked on the door of Orthank with his staff.

Interestingly Saruman's staff was BLACK: "His hand clutched his heavy black staff like a claw". I doubt that Saruman had a black staff while he were still Saruman the White! I also doubt that Saruman has fashioned himself a new black staff instead of the white one when he decided to turn evil.
It looks like his staff has changed colour all by itself.

So, I believe, it confirms my idea that Saruman's voice lost its power and his staff turned black the moment Gandalf's fea reported Saruman's treachery to the Valar and the White wizard's authority and blessing were withdrawn from him by the Powers.

Speaking of staves, Theoden also had a BLACK staff he leaned onto all the time. Gandalf said to throw it away, and Theoden immeadiately felt better. Perhaps it was a foul device of Saruman seeping strength out of the King?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

However it does not state in the book if he ever lost a staff in Orthanc, and in the film never explains how he got it back or forged a new one.

I have found the quote!!!
In the house of Tom Bombadil Frodo dreams of Gandalf escaping from Orthank:

The figure lifted his arms and a light flashed from the staff that he wielded. A mighty eagle swept down and bore him away.

So Saruman has not taken Gandalf's staff!

[durinsbane2244]

Originally Posted by Manveru

maybe saruman didnt think the sword wasnt of any value when he imprisoned gandalf in orthanc so he didnt take it. meaning that he didnt think that gandalf could do him any harm with it, he was much too powerful a wizard after all to be hurt by a mere sword

true, but we know that glamdring wasn't just some "mere sword" and saruman was wise enough to know it i imagine.