LoTR Discussion project; Book II Chapters 9 and 10

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I doubt any eagle would be under Sauron's or Saruman's control. Although that makes me wonder why seeing the eagle disturbed the Fellowship so much that they stuck to traveling in the dark...

To be honest, I never really picked up on this when previously reading through this chapter. It was only when writing up the summary that I began to notice smaller details like this. And I agree; I find it very hard to believe that any eagles would be under the dominion of Sauron. It IS perplexing that Aragorn is so visibly worried by the appearance of the Eagle. I can only imagine that he was rattled by other things, which in turn had turned him into an ever wary traveller.

Originally Posted by Earniel

I think Minas Tirith may have been a golden trap.

Yes, I think you are likely right. Concentrating all their forces from Minas Tirith would have been disastrous, IMO. The very nature of how the Fellowship split meant that the battle was in turn fought on many fronts, all acting as nice little distractions for the Ring-bearer, and his friend.

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

And that's the interesting thing. I think we can clearly agree that the Brown Lands were attributable to Sauron, and may have been a result of the 'scorched earth' policy, BUT why are they still desiccated? As a general rule, carbon is VERY fertile, so if the Brown Lands WERE the result of the Scorched Earth policy, then why are they still barren?

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it wasn't fire that was used to blight the brown lands. A curse of biblical proportions.

You can see throughout Tolkien's works the effect that evil has on the land... Every time they burn some orcs or a monster it leaves a dead spot. (conversely, the green mound in Anfauglith where the Noldor were piled after the battle of unumbered tears). The land of Mordor itself is another example. The dead marshes. Gorogoroth. The vales of Morgul.

Probably due to his trench experience. There are still places in France that are "blighted" because of the shelling and chemicals used there in WWI...

The really interesting exception is Dul Goldor... I guess Greenwood the great was too fecund to be completely blasted... but it's hard to say which is worse, twisted and malformed, or dead and blighted...

[Pytt]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

To be honest, I never really picked up on this when previously reading through this chapter. It was only when writing up the summary that I began to notice smaller details like this. And I agree; I find it very hard to believe that any eagles would be under the dominion of Sauron. It IS perplexing that Aragorn is so visibly worried by the appearance of the Eagle. I can only imagine that he was rattled by other things, which in turn had turned him into an ever wary traveller.

I neither think eagles were under the control of Sauron.
I thought about something, but I reasoned out writing it how stupid it was. I suppose you are right, BoP. He was just wary, and with all the other things, maybe he just didn't think about it, and did hide.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

I do remember the black squirrels (lol, d'ye think they're like the central park squirrels from NY... little gangster squirrels?), but I don't quite recall the context. Are you saying that the swans were just indigenous fauna from Mirkwood? Not resultant of Sauron in any fashion?

In some ways yes. As I said before I thonk that the swans were fleeing the growing power of Dol Guldur, which is an effect of Sauron's forces in the North.

I only mention it because of Sam's perception:

Do you suppose that Sam means that the river is a boundary between East and West? Throughout the whole chapter, Tolkien is very careful to provide distinctions between the East bank and the West. There is very powerful imagery of the party of travellers being swept from jagged tooth-like shoals, into the proverbial arms of their enemies. The oppressive chill eastern wind. The Brown Lands. The drab grey rock of Emyn Muil. Versus rolling green meads, towering reeds, etc, etc.

I think that Sam had knew the different journeys that would be taken, depending on which side of the River thhey took. I think he also knew war was coming, and it would not only be to Gondor. Also it is possible that by this time he had already seen Gollum, and not trusting him because of Bilbo's story, he thought that it was all to possible that Gollum would put orcs on their trail.

To what regard do you think that the Fell Beast was there then, if it wasn't after the Ring/Fellowship?

To patrol the land. War was coming at the Nazgûl were not only used to search for the Ring. Also a patrol of orcs was shooting at the Company just before the Nazgûl came. Perhaps the Nazgûl had come to check on any force leaving Lorien. It is also possible that the Nazgûl was flying east with news from Dol GUldur.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

To be honest, I never really picked up on this when previously reading through this chapter. It was only when writing up the summary that I began to notice smaller details like this. And I agree; I find it very hard to believe that any eagles would be under the dominion of Sauron. It IS perplexing that Aragorn is so visibly worried by the appearance of the Eagle. I can only imagine that he was rattled by other things, which in turn had turned him into an ever wary traveller.

You're probably right, I can't think of any other possible explanation.

Of the Fellowship, only Gandalf had had face-to-beak meetings and contact with the Eagles, and Gandalf happened to be the one the Fellowship was lacking at the time. Perhaps if he had been with them, he would have said something along the line of the improbability of an Eagle being in league with Sauron.

[olsonm]

I find it highly unlikely that Aragorn would think the eagle, itself, was a danger to the Fellowship. Rather, given their location (not to mention Gollum and the circling birds), he saw the eagle as a sign of some danger that was to come. Seeing an eagle there was significant (cf. Legolas : "It's an eagle....I wonder what that forbodes. It is far from the mountains.") and seeing it probably confirmed Aragorn's decision to travel by night.

[The Wizard from Milan]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Frodo feels pinned between the two powers, but even as he became aware of them, he becomes just Frodo again, and takes off the ring. The dark shadow gropes, and passes out over him.

It mentions two powers warring – one is clearly Sauron … who is the other?

When one reads this passage it looks like the two powers are Sauron and the Ring. Later on though, we learn that Gandalf was also exercising his power at the very moment to prevent Sauron from finding Frodo.
So I would say that there were more than two powers at work there

[The Wizard from Milan]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Discussion Point: The development of Sam and Frodo’s relationship – is it the Ideal of Platonic Love?

It is interesting that you bring up this point now. Indeed here Sam shows he is very attuned to Frodo's feelings and thoughts.
I think Sam's sentiments towards Frodo are clear. The way Sam holds Frodo's hand (both at Elrond's and when the finger is bitten off). Most revealing the moment when Shelob stings Frodo and JRR Tolkien comments that never in nature it is seen a fury more terrible than the one of a small creature with little teeths protecting the body of its fallen mate. Also the fact that Frodo had to leave from Gray Haven for Sam to be whole with Rosie.
I think the only thing that kept the relationship on a Platonic dimension is that Frodo did not reciprocate Sam quite in the same way. Frodo also grew to be fond of Sam but never quite as deeply

[Blackheart]

Ever examined the relationship between a british officer and his "batman"? You'll find an ideal model for Sam and Frodo's reationship.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Ever examined the relationship between a british officer and his "batman"? You'll find an ideal model for Sam and Frodo's reationship.

i think tolkien actually said that this was the relationship he was trying to achieve IIRC, cant remember a quote or reference point though.

[Elanor the Fair]

I recall that being mentioned somewhere as well - I think in an interview with some Tolkien "experts".

I see Sam's relationship with Frodo being based on a fierce loyalty. Sam sees his particular role as him being responsible for every aspect of Frodo's welfare - physical, emotional, mental and spiritual. I think it is also significant to Sam that Gandalf appointed him to this task, no less than he appointed Frodo to carry the Ring.

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Why do you think that Aragorn chose Gimli as a companion to Mordor? Why not Legolas, who would no doubt be a bit more stealthy than a noisome dwarf?

Perhaps Aragorn was simply equally dividing the remainder of the fellowship: two hobbits, a dwarf and a leader (Aragorn), and the Minas Tirith party: two hobbits, Boromir, and a leader (Legolas). Would Legolas be a better leader than Gimli?? Did Aragorn consider Boromir to be the leader and Legolas the additional companion?