The Lord of the Rings Discussion, Book II, Chapter 5

[Valandil]

Mr. Jenkins... didn't you have another portion to post about??

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Again, I hadn't thought of that distinction. Though, why do you say it's corrupting? I don't see any evidence of that in the text.

Better late than never .... I'll try to explain my thoughts about power. I think that power and the use of it is dangerous and is easily corrupted. Gandalf knew his peril:

‘But I have so little of any of these things! You are wise and powerful. Will you not take the Ring?’
‘No!’ cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. ‘With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly.’ His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. ‘Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great, for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me.’

It would be tempting for a powerful person to try to gain domination over other people, (or over nature and the earth, as in our case with Gandalf and the door?) to make his own will effective by force, even if the original intent may be good. Melkor was the most powerful of all the Ainur, and he fell. Saruman was the leader among the Istari, and he became corrupted. Galadriel desired power, to rule lands of her own, and only the wisdom gained during 3 ages in Middle-Earth saved her in the end.

For Gandalf, I think the open display of power and glory belonging to a Maia would be wrong in Middle-Earth, since this would lead the people around him to worship him and look to him for aid instead of trusting their own strength. Perhaps his fall inty the abyss with the Balrog was necessary for that reason too. It forced Aragorn to take the leadership and ultimately led Frodo to the decision he made at Parth Galen.

[The Gaffer]

Interesting take.

From the Sil, it's clear that Ainur have some sort of creative power which can directly bring changes about in the world. We have Tom's songs and the Rules of Riddling, all of which had a power of sorts.

I wonder if Gandalf's use of the "Word of Command" is part of his Ainuness.

If so, maybe it's like their other acts of creativity: having done it once, they can't do it again (lamps, trees, etc); some portion of themselves is spent in the act. So maybe the Command pitted an aspect of G directly against an equal and opposing Maia will, hence he was "nearly destroyed" and maybe only saved because the Chamber caved in.

Just a thought.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I wonder if Gandalf's use of the "Word of Command" is part of his Ainuness.

I think you are correct there Gaffer, and I like your thoughts about creativity and the power of words. Though I would argue that in this case there were no creation as with the two trees and the lamps. The aim here is a certain behaviour of the door, again pointing in the direction that everything in the world is 'alive'. Then one may perhaps talk about the distinction between a 'command' as a method to force the door to stay shut, and a mere spell as a method of persuation.

[Fat middle]

Originally Posted by Artanis

I think you are correct there Gaffer, and I like your thoughts about creativity and the power of words. Though I would argue that in this case there were no creation as with the two trees and the lamps. The aim here is a certain behaviour of the door, again pointing in the direction that everything in the world is 'alive'. Then one may perhaps talk about the distinction between a 'command' as a method to force the door to stay shut, and a mere spell as a method of persuation.

I like that very much, and also Gaffer's thoughts. However I'd say that there's little difference with the creation of the trees. In fact that "creation" may be considered as "a certain behaviour" that Yavanna & Co. commanded to the nature elements from where the trees were "created".

In the end we have only one example of word with the power of create: Eä.

[Artanis]

I like that very much, and also Gaffer's thoughts. However I'd say that there's little difference with the creation of the trees. In fact that "creation" may be considered as "a certain behaviour" that Yavanna & Co. commanded to the nature elements from where the trees were "created".

You may be right there Gordy, and I would like it even better if you said 'persuaded' instead of 'commanded'.

Originally Posted by Fat middle

In the end we have only one example of word with the power of create: Eä.

Very true, in all other cases we should use the word sub-creation.

[Fat middle]

Originally Posted by Artanis

You may be right there Gordy, and I would like it even better if you said 'persuaded' instead of 'commanded'.

You're right, 'persuaded' fits much better

[The Gaffer]

Cool thoughts. Indeed that makes much more sense.

I'll try to come up with some other examples over the festive period. Meantime, have a fantastic festive frolic, one and all; see you in 2005.

[Artanis]

Suddenly, and to his own surprise, Frodo felt a hot wrath blaze up in his heart. `The Shire! ' he cried, and springing beside Boromir, he stooped, and stabbed with Sting at the hideous foot.

I just have to put in some words of admiration of Frodo and Sam in here. They deserve so for the courage they displayed at the battle in the Chamber. I especially value this description of Sam after the fight:

A fire was smouldering in his brown eyes that would have made Ted Sandyman step backwards, if he had seen it.

[Earniel]

I'm late as usual. But nice introduction BJ!

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

This attention to the ringbearer as well as the presence of Mordor orcs makes one wonder if Sauron may very well have some communication with the denziens of Moria.

I remember a few discussion about whether or not Sauron had contact with the Moria orcs, but this must be the best argument for it I've heard until now. I had forgotten nearly all about those Mordor orcs.

There are trolls carrying stones to bridge the flaming fissure, but the presence which puts a touch of fear even to Gandalf's mind is a shadowy man-like form, wreathed in flame and wielding a flaming sword and whip. It's a fallen ainu out of arda's earliest days... a Balrog!

It was kind of weird when I was rereading this chapter. Despite the many times I've read this book, I suddenly had a whole new mental image of the balrog. No horns for example.

I remember reading this for the first time and paging through the rest of the book in hopes of Gandalf's return. Since "the Fellowship" was all I had at the time, I was keenly saddened by the loss of Gandalf, certainly a favorite, if not "the favorite" character of mine in the series. Luckily, there is another book.

Gandalf's 'death' was a very powerful scene. I remember talking about it with my sister (who had already read LoTR) in the car and she told me he would be back!

Originally Posted by Artanis

Throughout the book the notion of 'being in a spell' is often used to describe a state of mind in which one is caught into a vision (Rivendell, Tom Bombadil), which could be misinterpreted for the reality. But in our world a door is a dead thing. I wonder if it is different in Middle-Earth, where all things seem to have some kind of life, aka when Legolas claims that the stones in Eregion is speaking to him.

I like that notion of a kind of life in objects in Middle-earth. It also gives a nod to the fairytale-origin of LoTR.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Yes, I agree that it was foolish of Aragorn and Boromir to think that they could have done anything to help on the bridge. Legolas seemed to know enough to fear it, and Gimli too.

The Balgor is subject to pysical combat and injury, and the support of non paniced warriors would be an obvious help in fighting one. Given the power of terror wield by ht Balrogs, it is amazing that any incarnate but an exiled Noldo (with their supercharged spirit and power with reagrd to the unseen world) would advance against one.