Is bringing the Elves to Valinor wrong?

[Beren3000]

But Valinor is obviously paradise, and the Elves were the ones who "fell" from it. So they must at least have some connection to Adam and Eve.

[Durin1]

But Adam and Eve is just a story and their circumstances were different to the Elves. I'm not a christian but weren't Adam and Eve supposed to be born in the Garden of Eden? If you take the symbolism so broadly [and don't forget Fall (in its broad context) etc is not the exclusive preserve of Christianity] you can almost say that Cuivienen was the earthly paradise of the firstborn elves.

[Wayfarer]

Beren3000, you miss some very important points.

First of all, the Noldor leaving Valinor != Adam and Eve leaving the Garden of Eden.

Adam and Ever 'fell' and were kicked out of paradise because of their mistake. The Noldor made a conscious choice to leave Valinor because they no longer trusted the good intentions of the Valar. Completely different situations.

In fact, more broadly, Valinor != Eden.

Eden was created by God (Eru), as a place for Adam and Eve to live. Valinor was created by the Valar as a place for themselves to live. Eden was the 'best' spot in a world that was already 'good'. Valinor was the only good spot in a world that had been thrown to the dogs.

Manwe himself says:

"This is the counsel of Iluvatar in my heart: that we should take up again the mastery of Arda, at whatsever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadow of Melkor."

Take up again the mastery of Arda. When they first entered the World, Eru made them masters of it, and intrusted it to their care. They had abandoned that mastery, and here had the chance to reclaim it - but they ultimately failed to do that.

Iluvatar's intention was the the Valar be stewards of Arda, to care for it and enrich it. They had abandoned that task, and left the greater part of the world to Melkor, while hiding themselves away in one small corner of the world. Now that the elves have arrived, it is time for them to take back Middle Earth and make it safe for the elves. They make good progress on this, and capture Melkor, but then they retreat again. In their selfishness, they desired to have the elves for themselves rather than expend the effort it would have taken to keep Middle Earth safe so the elves could live as their creator intended.

Most damning of all is this:

At the last, therefore, the Valar summoned the Quendi to Valinor, there to be gathered at the knees of the Powers in the light of the Trees for ever; and Mandos broke his silence, saying 'So it is doomed.' From this summons came many woes that afterwards befell.

In the end, I believe that not only were the Valar wrong to bring the elves to Valinor, I believe it was a grave mistake for them to create Valinor in the first place. It was a short-sighted, selfish, and careless decision on their part.

[Beren3000]

But, Wayfarer, there's another point in favor of the Valinor-Eden parallel:
After the Noldor made the conscious choice to leave Valinor, Mandos forbade them to return and cursed them and then Valinor was hidden, just as Eden was guarded by 2 angels carrying swords of fire, preventing anyone from entering. PLUS, you might say that Adam and Eve made a conscious choice in eating off the Tree of Knowledge, as God Had already warned them against that. But an argument along these lines is best left to the Theology thread, I guess.

From this summons came many woes that afterwards befell.

As to that, don't you think that the Noldor, left in ME by themselves wouldn't have made that kind of woe? And even if the Valar had left the Noldor in ME and waged the War of Wrath from the get-go, wouldn't that have cost ME much of the beauty it afterwards had? Earendil's star, for one?

[Wayfarer]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

As to that, don't you think that the Noldor, left in ME by themselves wouldn't have made that kind of woe? And even if the Valar had left the Noldor in ME and waged the War of Wrath from the get-go, wouldn't that have cost ME much of the beauty it afterwards had? Earendil's star, for one?

No. No I don't think that.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

But, Wayfarer, there's another point in favor of the Valinor-Eden parallel:
After the Noldor made the conscious choice to leave Valinor, Mandos forbade them to return and cursed them and then Valinor was hidden, just as Eden was guarded by 2 angels carrying swords of fire, preventing anyone from entering. PLUS, you might say that Adam and Eve made a conscious choice in eating off the Tree of Knowledge, as God Had already warned them against that. But an argument along these lines is best left to the Theology thread, I guess.

The snake of Eden could be compared to Melkor in that way. He twisted the words of God/The Valar, making out that it was fine to do what God/Eru (or the Valar) had forbade. It was throught the sankes words that Adam and Eve ate the apples of the Tree of Knowledge and throught the words and deeds of Melkor that Feanor took up arms and persuaded the Noldor to leave Valonor.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

No. No I don't think that.

And why, might I ask?

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

The snake of Eden could be compared to Melkor in that way. He twisted the words of God/The Valar, making out that it was fine to do what God/Eru (or the Valar) had forbade. It was throught the sankes words that Adam and Eve ate the apples of the Tree of Knowledge and throught the words and deeds of Melkor that Feanor took up arms and persuaded the Noldor to leave Valonor.

You're speaking my language!

[Wayfarer]

Why don't I think the Eldar staying in Middle Earth would have been just as bad as them going to Valinor? Because the woes which occured during the first age proceeded directly from the Valars decision to bring them to Valinor. Furthermore, had they stayed in Middle Earth, the Valar might have been forced to do their job and work to minimize Melkor's influence. Furthermore, the elves themselves, if they had remained in Middle Earth, would have been able to keep the evil in check (much as men did in later ages). Just saying 'it would have been just as bad the other way' is a shoddy excuse for an argument.

And again, with the 'Melkor=Snake' analogy you're completely missing the point that Valinor and Eden were essentially different.

The Serpent in Eden convinced Eve that she shouldn't care whether or not she had God's permission to eat the fruit.
Melkor in Valinor convinced Feanor that the Valar didn't nescissarily have the best interests of the Elves in mind. The real kicker here is that by all accounts Melkor was telling the truth - the reasons for bringing the Elves to Valinor were selfish. Feanor left because the Valar's actions bore out what Melkor had told him.

Oh! And happy birthday yesterday, Beren.

[Durin1]

I agree with you Wayfarer. It was an ill-fated decision to bring the Elves to Aman. ME was their natural homes and by enamouring 3 members of the elvish clans to the "light of Valinor", the Valar caused an irreparable seperation between Eldar and Avari. Who wouldn't want to live in "paradise" if they were given the choice. Indeed, some elves did not desire to leave, many who went on the journey deviated or tarried. The Valar, after the discontent of the Noldor state that the Noldor are free to depart as they were free to come to Valinor. But was that really an option once they were totally enamoured?

If the War of the Powers had achieved its objective of freeing ME from the encroachment of Melkor, then surely they would have set the stage for the different elves to combine their talents to make ME a fairer place?

Of course, much in the way that Sauron does with the elves of Eregion during the Second Age (not to mention the Numenoreans), Melkor plants lies which have grains of truth. The Noldor would never have left Aman if they didn't, subconciously, desire to return to ME and meet their Kin again. Also, they themselves begin to question the Valar's decision to bring them to Aman because it served their own, selfish purposes. Sure, they increased in wisdom and power, but they were also alienated from other, potential Incarnates of ME. Nobody likes to feel restricted, whether forced to or out of desire. And it was this feeling of subjugation that Melkor exploited by stealing the Silmarils after he had sown his "half-lies".

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I disagree. Feanor left because the Silmaril's had been stolen from him. That is the main and essential reason. Melkor may have been telling the bare essentials to the truth, but he twisted it and manipulated to tell Feanor what he wanted Feanor to hear. Feanor may also have left because of Melkor slaying his father and as he was a proud elf he didn't like being tricked and manipulated.

[Durin1]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I disagree. Feanor left because the Silmaril's had been stolen from him. That is the main and essential reason. Melkor may have been telling the bare essentials to the truth, but he twisted it and manipulated to tell Feanor what he wanted Feanor to hear. Feanor may also have left because of Melkor slaying his father and as he was a proud elf he didn't like being tricked and manipulated.

Feanor may have had his own selfish reasons to retreive the Silmarils, but that doesn't explain why there was such a willingness on the part of the Houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin to follow him. Of course many were reluctant (Finarfin being a classic example) but the vast majority must have desired to see the "wide lands of ME", otherwise they could just have said no, regardless of extreme clan loyalty. Fingon, Turgon, Finrod and Galadriel (amongst others) wanted to explore these wide lands and set up realms there. Especially in the case of Finrod and Galadriel, were they so totally decieved by Melkor? I don't believe they were. I think they were following what their hearts must have desired for a long time.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Not a long time. It say's in The Sil (I'm not sure I don't have thee book with me at the moment) that Feanor's words stirred something in Galadriels heart. That she desired to have lands of her own to rule. If somethings stirs in your heart I doubt it would mean that it was something you had been constanly wishing for over a period of time.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Furthermore, had they stayed in Middle Earth, the Valar might have been forced to do their job and work to minimize Melkor's influence.

But if they were as selfish as you describe them, wouldn't they rather shrug it off and say that the Elves "had it coming" for refusing to come to Valinor; and after that they would shut themselves in Valinor forever, and to hell with ME?

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Furthermore, the elves themselves, if they had remained in Middle Earth, would have been able to keep the evil in check

Slim chances of that happening, IMO. If Morgoth could influence their minds in Valinor (the land of bliss), surely he could have tempted them in ME. Simply look at what Sauron did with the Elves in Eregion: Elves are vulnerable to evil (at least hot-headed ones like Fëanor )

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

the reasons for bringing the Elves to Valinor were selfish. Feanor left because the Valar's actions bore out what Melkor had told him.

But isn't that just what Melkor wanted? He knew that the Valar wouldn't want Fëanor running after the Sil's because they probably saw in the Music what will come of THAT, so Melkor knew the Valar's reaction beforehand and just "paraphrased" it if you will so that it would seem to Fëanor as betrayal on their part.

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Oh! And happy birthday yesterday, Beren.

Thanks, buddy

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Durin1

but the vast majority must have desired to see the "wide lands of ME", otherwise they could just have said no, regardless of extreme clan loyalty.

I beg to differ! It says in the Sil.(like TD stated) that Fëanor's words touched them (especially the younger, more impressionable ones like Finarfin's sons). If they really desired to see ME as you say, why hadn't they done so, before? Surely they could've asked leave of the Valar. They were just caught up in the heat of the moment; and indeed, many of them retreat to Valinor when they hear the Doom of Mandos.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But we forget that it was only the Noldor, and not all of them that left Valinor. Ingwe's and Olwe's folk stayed in Valinor and Tol Eressea respectivly.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I beg to differ! It says in the Sil.(like TD stated) that Fëanor's words touched them (especially the younger, more impressionable ones like Finarfin's sons). If they really desired to see ME as you say, why hadn't they done so, before? Surely they could've asked leave of the Valar. They were just caught up in the heat of the moment; and indeed, many of them retreat to Valinor when they hear the Doom of Mandos.

Actually... it's said that Galadriel, Fingon, Angrod and Eignor (sons of Finarfin) wanted to leave Valinor not to have revenge with Morgoth - but to see the wide lands and rule a kingdom. They only thought about it from Feanor's speech, yes - as he was talking about those lands.

[Durin1]

But why should it "touch them" if they had no such tendencies before-hand? Galadriel despised Feanor but listened to him because he (Feanor) knew that he would be exploiting a certain chord within the Noldor.

The folk of Ingwe are just isolationist puppets of the Valar; The Teleri of Alqualonde are also just isolationsists. They were happy to just continue to "be".

During his speech to the Noldor, Feanor pertains to the fact that the Noldor, in their ignorance and folly, forsook the elves that had stayed in ME. Maybe he was just saying so to pick up a couple of more votes, but this too may have been a factor.

[Beren3000]

So how about this new way to look at it:
The decision to bring Elves into Valinor IN ITSELF was not wrong. But because of the Elves' shortcomings, some of them stayed back in ME and thus the Elves were divided. This created the estrangement between them. Afterwards, the Valar learn that a Great Journey where ALL of the people involved would actually go along to Valinor is just not possible, so they decide not to bring Men into Valinor, and the rest is history...

[Pytt]

Exelent, Beren! an exelent short rewiev of it.

[Wayfarer]

Yeah. That's a possible way of looking at it. There's one major failure in your reasoning, though.

You assume that 'wanting to stay in middle earth' is a shortcoming of the elves, and that it was the Avari's fault. That directly counteracts the textual evidence.

Another interesting point to bring up is that the Avari called themselves 'Avari' - Forsaken. That would certainly seem to imply that they, at least, felt they had been abandoned by the Powers.

Another way to look at it would be this:

Inviting the Elves to Valinor was not entirely wrong. But the creation of Valinor itself was a mistake, and abandoning the rest of Middle Earth was clearly wrong on behalf of the Valar.

If they weren't going to do their job, they should have at least stopped at preventing the Children of Eru from being able to live as their creator intended.