Tolkien's Descriptions...?

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Neh heh, that was a fun read.

Thanks. What follows below is probably not what I was thinking about, but it's hard to sift through all the Celeborn-related stuff on the Internet. And it provides a similar, though more brief and less charismatic defense of Celeborn.


----Beginning of citation----
Celeborn doesn't have much of a reputation among a lot of Tolkien's readers. Even Robert Foster says something like: "He doesn't seem to be especially bright" in THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO MIDDLE-EARTH (and this evaluation is a carryover from THE GUIDE TO MIDDLE-EARTH, for what it's worth).

I disagree, however. Celeborn, in his own way, sees things that Galadriel doesn't perceive (as far as the reader is shown). It's Celeborn who points out the painfully obvious to Aragorn: that he has to choose one side of the river or the other. And yet it's also Celeborn who offers the deferral of the decision through the gift of the boats.

Celeborn also reveals a pretty good feel for what lies down river. He's obviously a strategic leader who doesn't just send out scouts but pays attention to what they say to him. Celeborn is equally aware of the peril of the Balrog, if not more so than Galadriel, when the Company tells his court of their adventure in Moria:

Originally Posted by FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING

'Alas!' said Celeborn. 'We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept....'

It's Celeborn who leads the assault across Anduin. Galadriel is the one who deals with the higher matters, certainly, wielding the Ring of Adamant to protect Lorien in some ways as Melian's girdle protected Doriath. Sometimes I think Lorien at the end of the Third Age is intended to recall something of Doriath's memory. Caras Galadon has that sense of splendor and "magic" that Menegroth had. And Celeborn says in his welcome to Gimli, "It is long indeed since we saw any of Durin's folk in Caras Galadon." As in Doriath, Dwarves once had been welcome in Lorien.

Celeborn is really an Elf of the wood, not of the Noldor. As Legolas seems simpler and less complex next to the crafts of the High Elves, so Celeborn must also seem a less sophisticated character. How could he be anything else? He never saw the Light of the Two Trees (in the incarnation Tolkien had in mind when he wrote LOTR).

Even though he requires Galadriel's prompting to do so, Celeborn is able to sympathize with Gimli's longing to see Khazad-dum:

Originally Posted by FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING

'I did not know your plight was so evil,' he said. 'Let Gimli forget my harsh words. I spoke in the trouble of my heart. I will do what I can to aid you, each according to his wish and need....'

Bound up with Celeborn's full welcome to Gimli earlier, I think these words reveal a significant wisdom in Celeborn that Elu Thingol, for all his
greatness, lacked:

Originally Posted by FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING

'Welcome Gimli son of Gloin! It is long indeed since we saw one of Durin's folk in Caras Galadon. But today we have broken our long law. May it be a sign that though the world is now dark better days are at hand, and that friendship shall be renewed between our peoples.'

Despite whatever old grudges he may bear against the Dwarves, Celeborn is not unfriendly to them, and he sees the changing of the world in his own way, I think, as much as anyone else of the Elven Wise.

But as I pointed out above, Celeborn is well acquainted with events outside Lothlorien. When Aragorn confesses his doubt that even Gandalf was uncertain of what should be done next, Celeborn says:

Originally Posted by FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING

'Maybe not...yet when you leave this land, you can no longer forget the Great River. As some of you know well, it cannot be crossed by travellers with baggage between Lorien and Gondor, save by boat. And are not the bridges of Osgiliath broken down and all the landings held now by the Enemy?'

Maybe he learned this from Galadriel. Maybe he learned it from scouts such as Haldir the border-warden, who told the Company he and others sometimes went out to collect news. Galadriel could not possibly have learned everything going on outside Lothlorien through her mirror. Or maybe they had a full accounting of the Council from Elrond in some fashion.

But the significance of the river is pointed to by Celeborn. He's the one who presents both the problem and the solution:

Originally Posted by FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING

'I see that you do not yet know what to do...It is not my part to choose for you; but I will help you as I may. There are some among you who can handle boats. Legolas, whose folk know the swift Forest River; and Boromir of Gondor; and Aragorn the traveller.'

I think Celeborn's knowledge of the outside world, provided to us only in glimpses, must be considerable indeed. Even Elves of Lorien have only a vague idea of where certain lands lay. Yet Celeborn spouts off geography like he runs the Ph.D. review boards. He even speaks as though he's made the journey downstream himself when he says:

Originally Posted by FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING

'...Then I will furnish your Company with boats. They must be small and light, for if you go far by water, there are places where you will be forced to carry them. You will come to the rapids of Sarn Gebir, and maybe at last to the great falls of Rauros where the River thunders down from Nen Hithoel; and there are other perils....'

When he is bidding farewell to Aragorn and the others, Celeborn adds yet more description to the journey which lies ahead of them:

Originally Posted by FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING

'As you go down the water...you will find that the trees will fail, and you will come to a barren country. There the River flows in stony vales amid high moors, until at last after many leagues it comes to the tall island of the Tindrock, that we call Tol Brandir. There it casts its arms about the steep shores of the isle, and falls then with a great noise and smoke over the cataracts of Rauros down into the Nindalf, the Wetwang as it is called in your tongue. That is a wide region of sluggish fen where the stream becomes tortuous and much divided. There the Entwash flows in by many mouths from the Forest of Fangorn in the west. About that stream, on this side of the Great River, lies Rohan. On the further side are the bleak hills of the Emyn Muil. The wind blows from the East there, for they look out, over the Dead Marshes and the Noman-lands to Cirith Gorgor and the black gates of Mordor.'

Of course, Celeborn is not without a little bit of Elvish wisdom. He warns Boromir not to take the old tales about Fangorn too lightly:

Originally Posted by FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING

'...But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know.'

I've always felt this passage was particularly prophetic, given the events in Minas Tirith concerning Athelas and Ioreth's babbling the old rhymes.

Celeborn doesn't have to stand up there with Elrond spouting knowledge of the making of the Rings of Power. He is older than Elrond and has apparently done his own share of travelling. But he also demonstrates that remarkable Elvish gift for remembering details, and the clarity of his foresight, if revealed only on two occasions, is no less certain -- I feel -- than Elrond's.

[Michael Martinez]

Okay, I found what I was originally thinking of. But I'm not going to reformat it like the previous message. This message was written in reply to someone who insisted that Galadriel was in charge, not Celeborn, and therefore he was only an ornament for her (or something to that effect).


-----Beginning of citation----
Celeborn respected Galadriel's opinion. That doesn't mean she was in charge. Here are some examples of who actually runs the show (and I realize these will probably be used against me the next time I defend Tolkien's portrayal of Elven women):

'When all the guests were seated before his chair the Lord looked at them again. 'Here there are eight,' he said. 'Nine were to set out: so said the messages. But maybe there has been some change of counsel that we have not heard. Elrond is far away, and darkness gathers between us, and all this year the shadows have grown longer.'

Who speaks first? Celeborn. And notice how Tolkien describes the scene. The eight are seated before CELEBORN'S chair. In fact, both Celeborn and Galadriel are said to be seated, but Tolkien obviously emphasized Celeborn as the center of power. However, I will comment on Galadriel's relative silence below.

'Alas!' said Aragorn. 'Gandalf the Grey fell into shadow. He remained in Moria and did not escape.'

At these words all the Elves in the hall cried aloud in grief and amazement. 'These are evil tidings,' said Celeborn, 'the most evil that have been spoken here in long years full of grievous deeds.' He turned to Haldir. 'Why has nothing of this been told to me before?' he asked in the Elven-tongue.

If Galadriel were really running the show, why wasn't she the one asking the questions FIRST? Celeborn had the prerogative, not Galadriel.

'We have not spoke to Haldir of our deeds or our purpse,' said Legolas. 'At first we were weary and danger was too close behind; and afterwards we almost forgot our grief for a time, as we walked in the gladness on the fair paths of Lorien.'

'Yet our grief is great and our loss cannot be mended,' said Frodo. 'Gandalf was our guide, and he led us through Moria; and when our escape seemed beyond hope he saved us, and fell.'

'Tell us now the full tale!' said Celeborn."

Again, it is Celeborn who speaks and commands the travelers to tell their tale. There is certainly nothing stupid in what Celeborn says when he speaks about Gandalf -- even Aragorn had warned Gandalf not to go to Moria. If Celeborn is stupid, then so is Aragorn. But Celeborn is contrite with his anger -- whatever his past with Dwarves may be, he seems reluctant to embrace the dark side of that history. When he greets Gimli he says:

'Welcome Gimli son of Gloin! It is long indeed since we saw one of Durin's folk in Caras Galadon. But today we have broken our long law. May it be a sign that though the world is now dark better days are at hand, and that friendship shall be renewed between our peoples.' Gimli bowed low.

Actually, Celeborn was expressing great foresight here. There WAS significant improvement in the relations between Elves and Dwarves in the following years.

As for Galadriel, sitting there silently, we can make many things of that. Celeborn is the one who greets the guests. Celeborn is the one who asks the questions. Celeborn is the one who demands explanations from Haldir and from the travelers. Galadriel only speaks up on a matter of personal importance. Obviously, she has learned to trust Celeborn to handle these sorts of matters, or else she has no authority to speak before him. She does counsel Celeborn to reconsider his harsh words -- so what? Celeborn has his own shining moments.

>Not quotes but a brief summary of some other things.
>AFter saying how wise Celeborn is she takes over the conversation. She is the
>one who summoned the white Council, not Celeborn, We have no evidence he was
>even on the Council.

And yet she promises no help. It is Celeborn who does so:

There was a silence. At length Celeborn spoke again. 'I did not know that your plight was so evil,' he said. 'Let Gimli forget my harsh words: I spoke in the trouble of my heart. I will do what I can to aid you, each according to his wish and need, but especially that one of the little folk who bears the burden.'

Now, why doesn't Celeborn offer THEIR help? He appears to be the senior authority here. More importantly, Galadriel assures the travelers that they can expect very worthwhile gifts from him:

'Your quest is known to us,' said Galadriel, looking at Frodo. 'But we will not here speak of it more openly. Yet not in vain will it prove, maybe, that you came to this land seeling aid, as Gandalf himself plainly purposed. For the Lord of the Galadrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings. He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.'

Now, here Galadriel is not merely speaking the praises of her husband. She is telling their guests a little something about Celeborn and herself. She is acting very much in a role like that of a vizier or steward -- a servant of the king -- and yet words convey an authority that is no lower than Celeborn's. She cannot rise above him at this point -- Tolkien has made it clear who commands, who gives the gifts. I hate to say it, as I'm sure THIS will come back to haunt me as well, but here Celeborn very much resembles the traditional king in the hall of the northern world -- the giver of gifts, the sole authority. I believe the medievalists will agree that this was how kings were portrayed -- the entire scene strikes me as very medieval in custom. Now, that may be because there was no triumphal procession through the streets -- you usually get that sort of thing in classical literature. I think Tolkien borrowed from the medieval background for this passage, and I would not likely argue with anyone who cared to expand on it with their greater knowledge of medieval history and custom.

Even the house, set high up in the tree as it is, reminds me of a great northern hall. Mailed Elf-wardens sit at the base of the tree much like mailed guards sit outside of Edoras and Meduseld. One of the guards blows a horn to warn those above (within) that the expected guests have arrived. Then Frodo and the others climb up, and:

...At a great height above the ground he came to a wide talan, like the deck of a great ship. On it was built a house, so large that it would have served for a hall of Men upon the earth. He entered behind Haldir, and found that he was in a chamber of oval shape, in the midst of which grew the trunk of the great mallorn, now tapering towards its crown, and yet making still a pillar of wide girth.

The chamber was filled with a soft light; its walls were green and silver and its roof of gold. Many Elves were seated there. On two chairs beneath the bole of the tree and canopied by a living bough there sat, side by side, Celeborn and Galadriel. They stood up to greet their guests, after the manner of Elves, even those who were accounted mighty kings....

Continued in next message.

[Michael Martinez]

Continued from previous message.

Well, except for the rising to greet their guests, this also all sounds very medieval to me. A Roman emperor would not sit in the middle of his palace with people all around him. A king or lord of a northern hall, however, might in fact have a similar arrangement. I think Tolkien's comparison, "so large that it would have served for a hall of Men upon the earth" makes it clear this is the image he was trying to convey. The whole business sets up Celeborn as the leader of the Galadrim -- he is a great lord, powerful, a commander of warriors. Elrond is a master of lore, and his battles lie behind him. Whereas the House of Elrond is open to all friendly peoples, Celeborn sits enthroned in a fortress city of Elves.

Moving on,...

>Then comes the Classic scene where she looks into the eyes of each of the
>fellowship and reads their hearts. Celeborn just stands there.

Yes -- well, Tolkien wrote that Galadriel could see deeper into the hearts of others than anyone else among the Eldar. Had Finwe, Feanor, or Ingwe himself been seated there, it STILL would have been Galadriel who did the searching and testing.

>I'm not quoting Celeborn because he doesn't say anything of substance in the
>rest of their first meeting.
>
>Pg 376.
>Sam: I wonder we don't see nothing of the Lord and Lady in all these days. I
>fancy now that she could do some wonderful things if she had a mind.
>
>Sam thinks she is the one with the power, not Celeborn

Of course -- he's already had an example of Galadriel's power. He has yet to see Celeborn as anything more than the mysterious, distant king of Lorien. He's a very rustic hobbit, mind you, and doesn't really presume to sit among the higher ups, except to serve on Frodo. How would Sam, at this stage in his life (before he has accomplished much more than the refurbishment of Bill the Pony), even CONCEIVE of approaching the Lord of the Galadrim and hoping to see some magic? Galadriel has made herself approachable in that respect already -- Celeborn has not. His time will come.

>Then follows the Mirror of Galadriel Scene that Celeborn has no part of. The
>Mirror is a device on par with a Palantir, reputable made by Feanor himself.
>Galadriel made it not Celeborn. He isn't even in the scene.

I wouldn't go so far as to equate the mirror with a Palantir. The Palantiri had properties the mirror did not. Nonetheless, I agree that the mirror is probably a very potent device -- perhaps only when Galadriel is there to empower it, though. Notice that she poured water into the basin and then breathed upon it. I don't believe the mirror was so much an *artifact* as a construction of Galadriel's mind. So it certainly is a very splendid example of her great power.

>Farewell to Lorien.
>Celebron. Here those who wish may reurn to their own lands, or else go
>to the long home of those that fall in Battle.
>
>Galadriel:They all resoved to go forward
>She knew without asking.
>
>Then Celeborn gives them the boats, the only proactive thing he does
>in the book. Not very impressive.

Tsk, tsk. Let's start at the beginning (although, as I indicated previously, I have no intention of citing the entire chapter -- Celeborn is all over it):

That night the Company was again summoned to the chamber of Celeborn, and there the Lord and Lady greeted them with fair words. At length Celeborn spoke of their departure.

'Now is the time,' he said, 'when those who wish to continue the Quest must harden their hearts to leave this land. Those who no longer wish to go forward may remain here, for a while. But whether they stay or go, none can be sure of peace. For we are come now to the edge of doom. Here those who wish may await the oncoming of the hour till either the ways of the world lie open again, or we summon them to the last need of Lorien. Then they may return to their own lands, or else go to the long home of those that fall in battle.'

Brave words, and nobly spoken, say I! Seriously, it is again Celeborn who initiates the conversation. He drives the agenda. He is in command. Galadriel waits for him to start the ball rolling.

There was a silence. 'They are all resolved to go forward,' said Galadriel, looking in their eyes.

'As for me,' said Boromir, 'my way home lies onward and not back.'

'That is true,' said Celeborn, 'but is all this Company going with you to Minas Tirith?'

'We have not decided our course,' said Aragorn. 'Beyond Lothlorien I do not know what Gandalf intended to do. Indeed, I do not think that even he had any clear purpose.'

'Maybe not,' said Celeborn, 'yet when you leave this land, you can no longer forget the Great River. As smoe of you know well, it cannot be crossed by travellers with baggage between Lorien and Gondor, save by boat. And are not the bridges of Osgiliath broken down and all the landings held now by the Enemy?'

Now, here we get the first glimpse of Celeborn's superb knowledge of the outside world. It doesn't matter where he gets his information from -- the Elf knows what's going on out there! "And are not the bridges of Osgiliath broken down and all the landings held now by the Enemy?" That's a long way off from Caras Galadon.

More importantly, Celeborn is doing some crucial fact-finding here. He needs to know what the Company intends to do before HE can start doing his own thing -- giving out gifts and dispensing advice. There is little advice forthcoming from the Elves in this story -- even Elrond is reluctant to dole it out. He waits for Frodo to decide to undertake the dangerous journey before really opening up, and then his advice doesn't amount to much.

Galadriel doesn't offer a whole lot either. She discusses the politics of the situation, and the powers of the Ring, with Frodo, but generally refrains from trying to help him on his journey. She in fact offers him a dangerous gift -- raw knowledge without the benefit of wisdom. What Sam and Frodo see in the mirror terrifies them, or sickens them. The encounter with the mirror is really as much for her benefit as theirs, if not more so. She had to confront the lure of the Ring, just as others before her had -- she had to pass a morality test, as it were.

Celeborn apparently doesn't need to pass that test. He has remained free of the Ring's allure. Perhaps Galadriel was more vulnerable because she had wielded Nenya for so long -- or perhaps Celeborn's feelings on the issue were clear and had long been sorted out. He certainly had the power to take the Ring from Frodo, but of all the great lords who come into contact with Frodo, Celeborn is the only one who is not in some way tested by it -- even Elrond speaks out at the Council: "I fear to take the Ring to hide it. I will not take the Ring to wield it." Why isn't Celeborn tested? His is the hand which leads the armies of Lorien. His is the voice which is heard first in the councils. He could indeed use the Ring -- unless, perhaps, his wisdom was great enough that the Ring simply could not appeal to him.

But let's return to Celeborn's second meeting with the Company of the Ring. He has asked some crucial questions. All he gets is the equivalent of "We don't know."


Continued in next message.

[Michael Martinez]

Contnued from previous citation.

'On which side will you journey? The way to Minas Tirith lies upon this side, upon the west; but the straight road of the Quest lies east of the River, upn the darker shore. Which shore will you now take?'

'If my advice is heeded, it will be the western shore, and the way to Minas Tirith,' answered Boromir. 'But I am not the leader of the Company.' The others said nothing, and Aragorn looked doubtful and troubled.

'I see that you do not yet know what to do,' said Celeborn. 'It is not my part to choose for you; but I will help you as I may. There are some among you who can handle boats: Legolas, whose folk know the swift Forest River; and Boromir of Gondor; and Aragorn the traveller.'

Now, Legolas is probably a gimme. He's an Elf. An Elf prince. Of course, Celeborn is again making mention about a geographical feature which lies far beyond his own land. In fact, there is no mention of his ever having been in northern Mirkwood, though that possibility is not precluded. Some people might (rightly) point out that when Tolkien wrote the book, Celeborn was conceived of as a Silvan Elf (wiser than ALL the Eldar) -- which means he grew up in the Vales of Anduin. He might once have journeyed throughout the region. But Thranduil's people had only lived near the Forest River for about two thousand years -- since the rise of Dol Guldur. What's more, we only know that Celeborn and Galadriel somehow took over rule of Lorien after the departure of Amroth. There is roughly a 900-year period in which Celeborn might have visited Thranduil's realm in the far north, but we cannot know for sure.

Also, Celeborn knew Aragorn. Aragorn had visited Lorien once before. So obviously Celeborn had ample opportunity to learn some things about Aragorn (or perhaps Aragorn even learned how to handle boats properly in Lorien -- but that was after his departure from Gondor, so I doubt Aragorn learned any useful boat skills from the Silvan Elves).

But what about Boromir? How in the wide world does Celeborn know Boromir can handle a boat? The guy is a prince of a great country, sure -- but is that sufficient to infer that he can handle boats? I am surprised by this knowledge that Celeborn possesses of Boromir. Perhaps he and Galadriel discussed what she found in his mind, but I think it's doubtful that she plumbed the deaths of the Dunadan from Minas Tirith. That would not be the Elven way.

Of course, Celeborn didn't know Merry (or Frodo, as it turned out) could handle a boat. His knowledge was not unlimited. But he seems to be pretty well informed about affairs in the wide world -- which one should not expect from so reclusive a society. Haldir told the Company that occasionally the Galadrim sent out scouts to gather news -- apparently they gathered a LOT of news. The policy seems to be Celeborn's, as he is the one who deals with the outsiders most authoritatively. Undoubtedly Galadriel shared in many of his decisions, but she expresses no real knowledge of the outside world. Sauron and Dol Guldur seem to be her chief concerns -- and Aragorn.

Skipping the rest of the meeting...we come to scene where Aragorn and the Company, trying out the boats on the Silverlode, meet Celeborn and Galadriel coming down the river in their swan-ship:

"...and suddenly they perceived that it was a ship, wrought and carved with elven-skill in the likeness of a bird. Two elves clad in white steered it with black paddles. In the midst of the vessel sat Celeborn, and behind stood Galadriel, tall and white; a circlet of golden flowers was in her hair, and in her hand she held a harp, and she sang....

Well, here Celeborn is in the position of power: he is seated while Galadriel stands. Later, after they've all eaten on the green lawn by the hythe of Lorien, Celeborn gives them a lecture on what to expect of the River. He speaks as if from personal knowledge. Galadriel is silent. Undoubtedly he has been that way at least once before: during the War of the Last Alliance:

'...On the further side are the bleak hills of the Emyn Muil. The wind blows from teh East there, for they look out, over the Dead Marshes and the Noman-lands to Cirith Gorgor and the black gates of Mordor.'

Boromir speaks in response:

'Indeed we have heard of Fangorn in Minas Tirith,' said Boromir. 'But what I have heard seems to me for the most part old wives tales, such as we tell to our children. All that lies north of Rohan is now to us so far away that fancy can wander freely there. Of old Fangorn lay upon the borders of our realm; but it is now many lives of men since any of us visited it, to prove or disprove the legends that have come down from distant years.'

After Boromir finishes his spiel about Rohan, Celeborn replies:

'Then I need say no more,' said Celeborn. 'But not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know.'

Now, I ask you -- how does Celeborn know this? What has he had to do with "old wives" -- who surely are not to be found among the Galadrim?

Of the other gifts, we may agree (I hope) that they were given equally by Celeborn and Galadriel. No greater weight should be appended to the bestowals than is granted in the book:

To Aragorn, an enchanted sheath with the name "Anduril" spelled in Elven letters;

To Merry and Pippin, small silver belts with gold clasps shaped liked flowers;

To Legolas a bow and a quiver of arrows;

To Sam, a small box with a mallorn nut and dirt from Galadriel's orchard; and I think this may have been an extremely personal gift from Galadriel herself;

To Gimli they left the choice of gift, and his request was most astonishing; but it, too, was a personal gift from Galadriel;

To Frodo, Galadriel's phial is also a personal gift -- at least, so she says.

But the Company is also given the Elven-cloaks, woven by Galadriel and her maidens. Would Celeborn be absent from such a decision? Also they receive cakes of lembas, again made by Galadriel and her maidens. As Melian gave such a gift to Beleg, so Galadriel must have been free to decide upon whom the cakes were bestowed.

The only other "gift" was that of the ropes. Still, the decision to equip the Company for their journey seems to have been Celeborn's. He knew something of the perils they would venture near, and I get the impression he favored the eastern path. The ropes came in most handy there, at least for Sam and Frodo.

>In the final farewell she is the Gift Giver. Sam and Frodo's gifts were both
>very powerful magic and they were hers.
>
>Celeborn just say there as usual.

Kings do that sort of thing, you know.

>Without hunting for references in the rest of the book I will mention that when
>they tell others about going to Lorien they all comment on meeting Galadriel
>not Celeborn. She is the one identified with the place.

When Merry and Pippin speak of Lorien to Fangorn they mention Celeborn, not Galadriel. They both get some press time. But it is Celeborn who leads the army across the River. He, apparently, wins the final battle against Dol Guldur's armies. And though Galadriel lays bare its pits, it is Celeborn and Thranduil who meet in the woods and rename the forest.

Celeborn was the leader. And his wisdom should not be underrated.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

What has he had to do with "old wives" -- who surely are not to be found among the Galadrim?

Think about WHO was sitting next to him.

Your agitation on behalf of Celeborn is very impressive, a lot of quotes to back up, and I partially agree with you: he WAS a great warrior with wisdom based on long time experience, who was unfortunately foreshadowed by his power craving wife.

I would make just a point about Celeborn's "wide knowledge of geography": he knows what lies withim his domain, no more, no less. First of it, he ouch to know Thranduil's realm , he was his kinsman and,as Tolkien mentioned,as Sindar passed eastward and established realms in the forest The chief of these were Thranduil in the north of Greenwood the Great, and Celeborn in the south of the forest.JRRT Secondly, on several occasions he was traveling to Eriador and Imladris through the Cirith Forn en Andras, which is at that time was actively used by Tranduil's elves, dwarves and men - great source of all kind of information!
So, Greenwood- Mirkwood (or at least it borders) should be quite familiar to him.

How in the wide world does Celeborn know Boromir can handle a boat?

The answer is simple. The Lothlorien realms was extending through the field of Celebrant, bounded by the river Limilight and bordering with Gondor till the beginning of the Third age ( later with Rohan ). By the mutual agreement Gondor had its forpost between Limlight and Anduin as eastern defence, because the North and South Undeeps was the place where people of Gondor ( and theirs enemies) can safely cross Anduin by boat of raft. I would not be surprised if on occasion Gondorians were borrowing a light and easy to steer boats from the local elves-dwellers.

Undoubdetly has been that way at least once before: during the War of the Last Alliance:

Doubtedly .This "Great Warrior" has never been noticed and mentioned in doing any assistance during the War of the last Alliance.
He just did not want to upset his wife!!..

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Olmer

I would make just a point about Celeborn's "wide knowledge of geography": he knows what lies withim his domain, no more, no less.

Unless his domain includes Gondor (at least as much of it as lies along the Anduin), his wide knowledge extends beyond the boundaries of his domain. After all, he mentions the bridges of Osgiliath. And he didn't rule over Mirkwood or Eriador, so your "no more, no less" doesn't make sense.

The answer is simple. The Lothlorien realms was extending through the field of Celebrant, bounded by the river Limilight and bordering with Gondor till the beginning of the Third age ( later with Rohan ).

Lothlorien did not extend so far. And, even if it did, that would in no way confer upon LothLorien's inhabitants the innate knowledge that a specific Man knows how to handle boats. By the end of the Third Age anyway, the Undeeps were no longer Gondorian territory. They marked the border between Rohan and the lands of the Easterlings.

Doubtedly .This "Great Warrior" has never been noticed and mentioned in doing any assistance during the War of the last Alliance.

All the Elves participated in the war. At least, so "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" tells us. Hence, Celeborn was there.

[Attalus]

Very impressive and informative, Michael. I agree with what you say about the presentation of Celeborn as a King with all the trappings of power, but there is another model I would invoke: Arthur and Merlin. I have always thought that when Celeborn was doing the speaking in the initial intereview with the Fellowship, Galadriel was already reading the hearts and minds of each of them, not just waiting to see what Celeborn's actions and judgements would be. She seems to have abandoned all pretensions to temporal power, and is content to be the Lady of the Golden Wood, sorceress extraordinare. This doubtless helped her overcome the temptation of the Ring.

"Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years. --Unfinished Tales, "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn,"

and the chief complaint that I had with the film's depiction of the Temptation scene is that it loses the faintly mocking tone that I feel that Galadriel would have used.

Galadriel laughed with a sudden clear laugh. 'Wise the Lady Galadriel may be, but here she has met her match in courtesy. Gently are you revenged for my testing of your heart at our first meeting. You begin to see with a keen eye.'

That has the sound of self-deprecation, I feel, and is a sign that she has already passed the test.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Very impressive and informative, Michael. I agree with what you say about the presentation of Celeborn as a King with all the trappings of power, but there is another model I would invoke: Arthur and Merlin. I have always thought that when Celeborn was doing the speaking in the initial intereview with the Fellowship, Galadriel was already reading the hearts and minds of each of them, not just waiting to see what Celeborn's actions and judgements would be. She seems to have abandoned all pretensions to temporal power, and is content to be the Lady of the Golden Wood, sorceress extraordinare. This doubtless helped her overcome the temptation of the Ring.

I don't see much connection between Arthur/Merlin and Galadriel/Celeborn. I am not even sure of what you see in Arthur/Merlin. That is, there are so many takes on the two figures, I don't know of any commonly assumed relationships. Merlin was the kingmaker. He didn't really last very long in Arthur's reign by some accounts.

Celeborn and Galadriel were husband and wife. I just don't see the parallel.

[Attalus]

Well, of course, they are not parallel. My point is that Celeborn handled the military power and material things, Galadriel did the magic. They both were involved in politics, of course, but Gandalf's relationship seemed to have been primarily with Galadriel. Or have I missed something?

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Well, of course, they are not parallel. My point is that Celeborn handled the military power and material things, Galadriel did the magic. They both were involved in politics, of course, but Gandalf's relationship seemed to have been primarily with Galadriel. Or have I missed something?

Ah. I think I understand you better.

Well, no, technically, you haven't missed anything that I can think of. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that Celeborn was powerless. Nor would I say he was as powerful as Galadriel, either. I just never saw as clear a distinction between their responsibilities.

To me, they act like the perfect (or as near perfect as possible) couple: a true team.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

Ah. I think I understand you better.

Well, no, technically, you haven't missed anything that I can think of. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that Celeborn was powerless. Nor would I say he was as powerful as Galadriel, either. I just never saw as clear a distinction between their responsibilities.

To me, they act like the perfect (or as near perfect as possible) couple: a true team.

Oh, I never said that Celeborn was powerless. I agree that they were (and are) a great team, as marriage among the Eldar are supposed to be.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Oh, I never said that Celeborn was powerless. I agree that they were (and are) a great team, as marriage among the Eldar are supposed to be.

That's what he SAYS... what he really MEANS... is that he's jealous!!

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Valandil

That's what he SAYS... what he really MEANS... is that he's jealous!!

Sad but true. I would have been much better.