By land, air, and sea!

[BeardofPants]

Yes, that is true. Sending eagles over mordor would be the equivalent of sending the crebain over moria... There's just no way that Sauron would write-off the eagles as random beasties doing a pass-over.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

No, the eagles are also the messengers, eyes, and ears of Manwe....I think Sauron might take exception to an eagle flying over Mordor, for whatever reason.

FB

At the very least, the sight of a Great Eagle flying over Mordor would make him think something was going on that he did not understand, causing him to rethink his whole position, The whole idea was to confirm Sauron in his belief that the Ring was going to Minas Tirith to be used agaist him. Anything that indicated otherwise would pose grave risks. It's like being at gunpoint and taking a swift jab at your enemy. Maybe, just maybe you'll get a lick in and knock him out, but probably you'll get shot, as opposed to drugging his drink with a sedative he doesn't know that you have.

[Michael Martinez]

Using the Eagles of the Misty Mountains to dive-bomb Mordor with the One Ring was never an option for the Council of Elrond. This absurd topic has been whittled to the bone across thousands of discussions. There was no one at the council who had the authority to speak on behalf of the Eagles and even when Elrond and Aragorn sent out their scouts, no one was able to locate Radagast, so he never contributed anything else to the cause.

Gandalf's relationship with the Eagles was a personal one, not a professional one -- that is, his task was not to coordinate Ents and Eagles in their efforts against Sauron, but rather to help Men and Elves resist Sauron.

There was no way the Eagles were going to be involved in the story at that point. It was a complete, total impossible, and no amount of wishful WHAT IF rationalization can even come close to altering the boundaries of the tale which Tolkien provided.

The Eagles were not an option, not a possibility, not an underutilized resource, not involved, not there for the sake of dropping Rings of Power into volcanoes, not charged with solving a problem created by the Elves, not responsible for bringing Rings of Power to Mordor, nor in the least bit aware of the location of the Ring or the necessity to destroy, much less predisposed to participate in, propose, or carry out any actions against Mordor which would have pre-empted all the choices that had yet to be made by the Free Peoples.

[Attalus]

Yeah, what he said.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

Using the Eagles of the Misty Mountains to dive-bomb Mordor with the One Ring was never an option for the Council of Elrond. This absurd topic has been whittled to the bone across thousands of discussions. There was no one at the council who had the authority to speak on behalf of the Eagles and even when Elrond and Aragorn sent out their scouts, no one was able to locate Radagast, so he never contributed anything else to the cause.

I don't know that its absurd. While I agree that for all sorts of reasons, the eagles were not an option, I don't think that the topic is absurd. After all no representitive of the Ents or the Woses was at the Council either, yet they played their parts in the War and so in the Quest.

Gandalf's relationship with the Eagles was a personal one, not a professional one -- that is, his task was not to coordinate Ents and Eagles in their efforts against Sauron, but rather to help Men and Elves resist Sauron.

I always thought it was to coordinate the Free Peoples of Middle Earth--so then the question is whether or not the Eagles of the Misty Mtns and the Ents and huorns count as "Free Peoples" or not.

The Eagles were not an option, not a possibility, not an underutilized resource, not involved, not there for the sake of dropping Rings of Power into volcanoes, not charged with solving a problem created by the Elves, not responsible for bringing Rings of Power to Mordor, nor in the least bit aware of the location of the Ring or the necessity to destroy, much less predisposed to participate in, propose, or carry out any actions against Mordor which would have pre-empted all the choices that had yet to be made by the Free Peoples.

Well, the claim is interesting, and for the most part I agree with the conclusion. But the point of the discussion from our end is to show WHY this is so, not merely to declare it. I think Attalus, Val, and others have done an adequate job of doing just this, so I'll not repeat their comments here. But I have difficulty with just declaring something is so, because....

FB

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I don't know that its absurd. While I agree that for all sorts of reasons, the eagles were not an option, I don't think that the topic is absurd. After all no representitive of the Ents or the Woses was at the Council either, yet they played their parts in the War and so in the Quest.

They also happened to live in the path of the Fellowship. The Eagles did not, and thus played no part until the very end, when of their own volition they provided support to the Army of the West.

I always thought it was to coordinate the Free Peoples of Middle Earth--so then the question is whether or not the Eagles of the Misty Mtns and the Ents and huorns count as "Free Peoples" or not.

From "The Istari" in UNFINISHED TALES:

...Emissaries they were from the Lords of the West, the Valar, who who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.

Nothing about "coordinating" anyone, much less Ents and Eagles.

Well, the claim is interesting, and for the most part I agree with the conclusion. But the point of the discussion from our end is to show WHY this is so, not merely to declare it.

The why cannot be shown, since none of us speak for Tolkien. One can only point out the obvious.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

They also happened to live in the path of the Fellowship. The Eagles did not, and thus played no part until the very end, when of their own volition they provided support to the Army of the West.

Who? The Wose? The Ents? Which "they" do you speak of here? As for the Eagles, might I remind you that BEFORE the Fellowship left Rivendell messengers/lookouts did go to the Eagles of the Misty Mountains and sought news, and the Eagles had none to tell. See the 2.3 The Ring Goes South: "Even from the Eagles of the Misty Mountains they learned nothing." The fact that Elrond's messengers knew where to find the Eagles, knew to speak to them, brings up the question under consideration.

From "The Istari" in UNFINISHED TALES:

Nothing about "coordinating" anyone, much less Ents and Eagles.

Ah, I see the problem for you is the word "coordinate" which I took from your penultimate post in the first place. So let's say this: Gandalf's mission was "to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt." Now in your penultimate post of 10-03 you say, "that is, his task was not to coordinate Ents and Eagles in their efforts against Sauron, but rather to help Men and Elves resist Sauron." It seems to me that Tolkien himself says your wrong unless you want to try and argue that Sauron would not seek to dominate and corrupt Eagles, Ents, Woses, Hobbits, and Dwarves since your claim seems to say that Gandalf's mission to "to help Men and Elves." I'll side with Tolkien on this one.

The why cannot be shown, since none of us speak for Tolkien. One can only point out the obvious.

Oh please. If its that obvious then the why is in plain sight. As you know well this question has been asked and discussed on every Tolkien board in existance and in print. IF it is so obvious there would be no need to ask the question. This is mere escapism on your part, in my view.

FB

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

...The fact that Elrond's messengers knew where to find the Eagles, knew to speak to them, brings up the question under consideration...

My biggest problem with the 'Eagle Intervention' possibility is that it would have made for a VERY boring story. I mean... this whole Middle Earth thing just would NOT have caught on! Just try writing it that way (anyone!) and see how it comes out...

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Who? The Wose? The Ents? Which "they" do you speak of here?

The only "they" I mentioned, obviously.

And there is no textual evidence of any contact between Elrond's messengers and the Eagles of the Misty Mountains. In fact, all contact between Eagles and everyone OTHER than Radagast was stipulated by Tolkien to be iniiated by the Eagles themselves.

Ah, I see the problem for you is the word "coordinate" which I took from your penultimate post in the first place.

You neglected to also take "NOT TO" with the coordinate.

So let's say this: Gandalf's mission was "to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt."

Which is NOT TO coordinate.

Since I'm not disagreeing with Tolkien, obviously, you are in the wrong.

Oh please. If its that obvious then the why is in plain sight.

Wrong again. The "why" is never in plain sight, since we don't know why Tolkien made the choices he made except where he explained himself.

And he never anticipated the need to address the question of why the Eagles didn't fly the Ring to Mount Doom and drop it in.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Valandil

My biggest problem with the 'Eagle Intervention' possibility is that it would have made for a VERY boring story. I mean... this whole Middle Earth thing just would NOT have caught on! Just try writing it that way (anyone!) and see how it comes out...

I don't have a problem with the "Eagle intervention" absurdity. It doesn't even approach the realm of possibility because no one who advocates such a route has ever been able to show how it would have been accomplished.

It's not like Elrond had a little red phone sitting in his library, by which he could contact the Eagles' Eyrie. Nor did he have a searchlight to shine up into the night sky.

The Eagles were beyond the reach and scope of the Council of Elrond, and that much is pretty obvious to anyone who looks at the texts. Of course, if anyone can point to a passage which shows that Elrond would have been able to contact the Eagles, I would enjoy reading it -- especially if it were actually written by J.R.R. Tolkien himself.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

Of course, if anyone can point to a passage which shows that Elrond would have been able to contact the Eagles, I would enjoy reading it -- especially if it were actually written by J.R.R. Tolkien himself.

Can I have a pleasure?
"In no region had the MESSENGERS discovered any signs or tidings of the Riders or other servants of the Enemy. Even from the EAGLES of the Misty Mountains they had learned no fresh news." (FOTR,The Ring goes South.)

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Can I have a pleasure?
"In no region had the MESSENGERS discovered any signs or tidings of the Riders or other servants of the Enemy. Even from the EAGLES of the Misty Mountains they had learned no fresh news." (FOTR,The Ring goes South.)

And where does that passage indicate that Elrond's messengers initiated the contact?

Tolkien wrote far less about the Eagles than people assume. It's one thing for the Eagles to swoop down out of the sky, ask how things are going, and perhaps agree to a further exchange of information.

It's quite another for Elrond to ask the Eagles if they would be willing and capable of taking the Ring to Mordor.

How is Elrond supposed to make contact with the Eagles in order to convey such a request? His scouts spent up to two months scouring the land. That's hardly an efficient means of communication.

[Nurvingiel]

I always thought of the Eagles of as good beings who helped Middle-earth when they felt like it. Bailing people out is not what the Eagles were sent to do. Let's think of times we've seen them.
In the Hobbit, they rescue Gandalf, Bilbo, and the Dwarves. This is because they had been the observing the orcs for some time, and knew that they were planning something evil. They rescued Bilbo and co. because they wanted to thwart the orcs plans. But they would not carry the company much farther beyond the Misty Mountains.
Gwaihir rescued Gandalf from Orthanc. Gandalf was only able to contact the Eagles because of Radagast IIRC, and then I think he really owed Gwaihir big time.
They also helped in the Battle of the Five Armies because they wanted to disrupt whatever the orcs were up to. I also think, that the Eagle's good nature makes them want to help people in Middle-earth. At the Battle of Five Armies, they saw the effort of the Dwarves, Elves, and Men, and helped as well. However, delivering the Ring to the Cracks of Doom would be single-handedly saving everyone, and that wasn't their style. That's why they saved Frodo and Sam after, but did not carry them there in the first place.

[Earniel]

Well put, Nurv. I agree.

But I think we've veered well away from the original topic by now.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

And where does that passage indicate that Elrond's messengers initiated the contact?

Where doesn't it? It does not say that the Eagles initiated contact or came down and wanted to have a nice chat with some Elven warrior types skulking about the Wild. Granted, it doesn't say that the Eagles did initiate contact either.

But I will point out that the entire paragraph is about Elrond's messengers/scouts actively searching and inquring about Gollum, about movements of the Enemy and the Nine, seeking any sign or information. I. E. they are the active agents of the paragraph. The context suggests that Elrond's messenger's initiated contact, not the Eagles.

Tolkien wrote far less about the Eagles than people assume. It's one thing for the Eagles to swoop down out of the sky, ask how things are going, and perhaps agree to a further exchange of information.

It's quite another for Elrond to ask the Eagles if they would be willing and capable of taking the Ring to Mordor.

But the fact that there is contact, and that Gandalf is charged with assisting and uniting all those whom Sauron would wish to destroy or dominate, then it follows that the request could be made, and it is obvious to ask why this avenue wasn't explored. There are sound reasons why it wasn't, and those can be articulated. But the question is far from absurd.

How is Elrond supposed to make contact with the Eagles in order to convey such a request? His scouts spent up to two months scouring the land. That's hardly an efficient means of communication.

Efficiency isn't really possible in Middle Earth, save in circumstances such as huge flying beasts such as the Nazgul ride that can cover the distance from Mordor to Orthanc in a matter of hours; or through means of the Palantir. Gandalf spent months on top of Orthanc before Gwahir came bearing tidings....as you say hardly an efficient means of communication, but there it is, right there in the book Tolkien wrote. Further, Galadriel seems to have contact with the Eagles, who according to Gwahir himself commanded Gwahir to find Gandalf and bear him to Lothlorien. If Galadriel had contact, it is likely that Elrond did too, at the very least through her if not directly.

FB

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Where doesn't it?

Tolkien was under no obligation to anticipate and debunk every nonsense argument years in advance. If you want to take up the banner for having Elrond (during the Council) get on the Bat-phone to contact the Eagles, feel free to cite a passage where he initiates contact with the Eagles (which was my original request).

The passage cited above in no way indicates that Elrond's messengers initiated contact with the Eagles. And it certainly doesn't show how the Council of Elrond could have contacted the Eagles, much less asked them to carry the Ring to Mordor.

But the fact that there is contact,

Is irrelevant, since the passage doesn't indicate who initiated the contact, much less that Elrond and Gandalf could have called up the Eagles on the spot and requested a Mordor flyby to avoid all the nonsense about sneaking past Sauron's forces with the Ring.

and that Gandalf is charged with assisting and uniting all those whom Sauron would wish to destroy or dominate, then it follows that the request could be made,

Wrong again. See above. In order for it to be possible that "the request could be made", you need to show that A) they had the means to communicate with the Eagles (and they clearly did not) and B) that they had the right to ask the Eagles to undertake such a journey (and Elrond specifically denied having the right to request that anyone make such a journey, much less the Eagles).

Efficiency isn't really possible in Middle Earth,

Odd, how those 30 Dunedain showed up in Rohan, isn't it? That's pretty danged efficient in my book. Aragorn didn't even have to send for them.

Amazing how Gandalf was able to assist Frodo in resisting the Ring's influence enough to take it off while he sat atop Amon Hen as Sauron searched for him, isn't it? That's pretty danged efficient in my book.

Curious how Denethor knew about the movements of Gandalf and company in Rohan, isn't it? Seems rather efficient to me.

Quite stunning, how the Woses and some of the Rohirrim understood that the wind was changing just before the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, isn't it? The timing of Aragorn's arrival on that fateful is pretty darned efficient, too.

Perhaps these were all just conveniences of the plot, but what is an efficiency, if not a convenience of the plot?

Communication and coordination were achieved with amazing efficiency despite the lack of time, technology, and resources.

So, you're wrong again.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Well put, Nurv. I agree.

But I think we've veered well away from the original topic by now.

Thanks Eärniel! I think there actually is a thread on this somewhere. Maybe this part should merge, or we should all wander over there, or something.

Because this discussion is interesting; I think Michael makes good points as well. (Sorry FB, I just don't agree with you, and you don't have sufficient evidence to back it up IMHO )

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

There is the thread by land, sea or air which this discussion would fit into nicely.

[Earniel]

Consider it done. Valandil, I'm AGAIN ahead in the splitting threads race!

[Nurvingiel]

Nice split Earniel! But of course you're ahead - you've been a mod for much longer IIRC.

I think it's worth pointing out that though Michael has sufficient evidence to say that the Eagles were not an option for destroying the Ring, you don't have enough to say that Forkbeard's question was absurd. This is a subjective opinion of his question, while your evidence is objective.