Were the Elves allies to Gondor?

[Ñólendil]

I mean if the elves had stayed in Middle-Earth into the Fourth Age and Gondor was under attack by a force greater than that on the Pelennor Fields the surely the elves would have ridden if only to just save Arwen. I can't imagine Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir just watching Gondor and their daughter/sister be destroyed.

Many Elves did stay in the Fourth Age, but that aside, this is such a hypothetical question it is hard to imagine the answer. It would depend on the circumstances, ... but if Rivendell did not send an army in the War of the Ring, why would they send one in the Fourth Age? You suggest they would go to "save Arwen", but that would suggest the only reason Rivendell did not help much in the War of the Rings because they're own people were not in immediate danger in the land of Gondor. I disagree with this--Rivendell did not send an army for a few different reasons, but one of them would have to be that sending enough to make a difference would deplete their own defenses, and leave no one left to defend or flee should the tide of War sweep into Eriador. Anyway, in the Fourth Age Arnor was rebuilt, and the Reunited Kingdom of Arnor and Gondor was a mighty one. Any army large enough to crush it would not be bothered by a force of Imladris.

Gondor and Rohan actually did go to war in the far East (and possible South, I don't remember), many times, before Elessar passed away.

But what are you driving at?

[Attalus]

There wouldn't be enough around after Fourth Age 1, when Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf had left the preceding year. The flight of the Elves, as I understand it, was quite precipitate after Sauron was defeated. The remaining Elves would be solitary Caliquenti and Nandor uninterested in marching off to war. True, Celeborn, Elladan, and Elrohir might still be around, but I seriously doubt that they disposed of much force.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Even a few elves attached to a human army would be a great asset with their evelven senses and flexible sleep cycle. Their would add very much as scouts and night pickets.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

Many Elves did stay in the Fourth Age, but that aside, this is such a hypothetical question it is hard to imagine the answer. It would depend on the circumstances, ... but if Rivendell did not send an army in the War of the Ring, why would they send one in the Fourth Age? You suggest they would go to "save Arwen", but that would suggest the only reason Rivendell did not help much in the War of the Rings because they're own people were not in immediate danger in the land of Gondor. I disagree with this--Rivendell did not send an army for a few different reasons, but one of them would have to be that sending enough to make a difference would deplete their own defenses, and leave no one left to defend or flee should the tide of War sweep into Eriador. Anyway, in the Fourth Age Arnor was rebuilt, and the Reunited Kingdom of Arnor and Gondor was a mighty one. Any army large enough to crush it would not be bothered by a force of Imladris.

Gondor and Rohan actually did go to war in the far East (and possible South, I don't remember), many times, before Elessar passed away.

But what are you driving at?

I'm not saying that they didn't go to Gondor because their own people were in danger, only that there would be more of an initiative to go to Gondor.

[Durin1]

I can't see where the Noldorin realms (Imladris and Lindon) were going to get sufficient numbers for an army.

As for Lothlorien and Mirkwood elves (and don't forget the Dwarves of Erebor and Men of Dale, Beornings etc): they had war on their own doorstep, although it is not clearly chronicled in the book ( look at the appendices).

The culture and power of Gondor had been in decline for a good many years before. Their memories would have been short also. Eventually, through the passing of time and numerous battles for survival, the Gondorians became insulated and concerned only with their own problems. They had allies in their neighbours The Rohirrim, but other than that they would have hardly mingled with any of the other races of peoples during the third age. Hence, they forget about Ents, find Lorien perilous (being "old wives' tales" according to Boromirs summation of the general thoughts of the people of Gondor towars the Lady of the Golden Wood).

Also, don't forget that ME is a big place. The Elves of Mirkwood would have been about 800 - 900 miles from Minas Tirith. Imladris is far off and now known only to a few. Gondor's navy is not as big as it used to be and they don't travel to Mithlond anymore. Moria doesn't exist anymore (in the sense of Dwarves maintaining a powerful realm there) and the Dwarves have dispersed, either to the north and east or to the far off Blue Mountains.

The fact is that ME was beginning to be dominated by Men. They had to be prepared to take responsibility of Me after the power of elves and dwarves waned. That is why Aragorn is groomed to unite the efforts of Men and to rule a unified realm of Arnor and Gondor.

Two of the most poignant scenes in LoTR for me are between Legolas and Gimli: Firstly, when they are is Helm's Deep and they discuss how they would like some of their own people with them. Legolas states that they wouldn't come, battle is raging over there too (paraphrased). Secondly, after the great victory on the Pelennor and in anticipation of Aragorn's coronation, they talk about a few "stuff" and Legolas comments that "the works of Men will out last us, Gimli".

In short, that is why there is no "strategy" in conbining forces in Gondor. Men are required to deal with the problem since they will be governing ME in the near future.

[Draken]

I would agree that there was nothing like a formal alliance between the elves and Gondor. The last such alliance had been millenia before, and both sides had much distrust of the other.

Also, don't forget that few Grey Elves and fewer High Elves remained in Middle Earth. The days of mighty Elven firewpower were long gone. The majority of remaining elves were Wood Elves, and The Silmarillion tells us that after early terrible losses, they played little part in the War of the Jewel. Now, if they felt they couldn't take an active part in evenkind's greatest ever war, would their descendents march to the aid of Gondor?

I would see the elves of the 3rd Age as being a defensive power only, able to defend their woodlands (aided in the case of Lothlorien by defensive magic), but knowing full well that to venture out and do open battle would be near-suicide, and would play into Sauron's hands.

[Durin1]

Originally Posted by Draken

Also, don't forget that few Grey Elves and fewer High Elves remained in Middle Earth. The days of mighty Elven firewpower were long gone. The majority of remaining elves were Wood Elves, and The Silmarillion tells us that after early terrible losses, they played little part in the War of the Jewel. Now, if they felt they couldn't take an active part in evenkind's greatest ever war, would their descendents march to the aid of Gondor?

Yes, but the green Elves of Ossiriand were themselves distantly related to those elves who continued to stay east of the misty mountains and the vales of Anduin. Their reasons for taking less active part in the war of the jewels was that it was not their war. they desired to come to Beleriand, not to sail oversee, but to find new lands. They were also not a warlike people.

Anyway, as someone has already mentioned; Oropher led a large force to the Last Alliance, along with Magalad/Amdir of Lorien (as did Durin IV of Moria). Wasn't that coming to the "aid" of Gondor in a manner of speaking?

In the council of Elrond, it is stated by Elrond himself that there will be no such alliance of Elves and Men again, since "Men multiply while the firstborn decrease (i.e. leave ME) and elves and men have been sundered and estranged in later days" [paraphrased].

The elves have their own problems within their own lands to even contemplate going to the aid of Gondor even if they had the numbers, which they do not (despite Peter Jackson's ridiculous sending of elves to Helm's Deep)

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Sometimes words could be deceiving, and you are getting the whole picture by analizing the actions.It's not what the Elves said, it's what they did.

I won't accept you challenge because, as I can see, you are taking the given story at face value and don't want to go deeper than that .

I have to admit to some curiosity about how one can "go deeper than" the "story at face value".

It sounds very much to me like you are using the Uzi Rule. That is, since Tolkien didn't anticipate the assumption that Orcs carried Uzis, he didn't deny that they carried Uzis, and since he didn't deny as much, it must be true that they really did carry Uzis.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

I have to admit to some curiosity about how one can "go deeper than" the "story at face value".

It sounds very much to me like you are using the Uzi Rule. That is, since Tolkien didn't anticipate the assumption that Orcs carried Uzis, he didn't deny that they carried Uzis, and since he didn't deny as much, it must be true that they really did carry Uzis.

Olmer's ideas go a bit beyond that. His ideas are quite unorthodox, and indeed he's the only person I've encountered who holds them (though he claims to not be alone). He has put together what he considers inferences, and what seems like 'coincidences' to the rest of us to form some unusual theories about motivations and alliances of Elves, Istari and Orcs.

But I can't really do him justice. If you have the time, do a search of his posts and start with the earlier ones. You would probably have a much greater base of knowledge than me for an attempt to 'debunk' his theories, if you'd want to take the effort.

Meanwhile, he sure keeps things 'interesting' around here. I don't think he has won any 'converts' yet, but he keeps trying.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Well, here's my take on why the Elves did not come to the Pelennor:
"The might of Elrond lies in wisdom not weapons..."
-Boromir, The Council Of Elrond

I think that someone has been influenced by the movie portrayal. Peter Jackson chose to represent the battle at the gates of Minas Tirith as the single decisive battle of the War of the Ring when in fact it was only the opening salvo. "Here the hammer-stroke will fall hardest" said Gandalf. And it did indeed, but also on Lorien, on Mirkwood, on Erebor... If Smaug had not been destroyed - see Unfinished Tales - "there might be no Queen in Gondor now" because Sauron attacked everywhere, with all he had. The elves could not come to the aid of Men at Helm's Deep or at Minas Tirith because they were fighting their own wars.

It is also interesting the theory of Elf/Orc "implied understanding" sees the Eldar as having a vested interest in changing the politics of Middle-earth when in fact they were preparing to leave it forever. The War of the Ring, as is reiterated many times by Tolkien, ended "both in victory unlooked-for and in sorrow long forseen." The time of the Elves was ending. The dawn of the Age of Men came because the Eldar withdrew from Middle-earth and the politics thereof, not because they attempted to influence it.

It is ridiculous to concieve of the Firstborn ever having alliances with the Orcs in the light of Tolkien's work. The theory that they might have had "tacit understandings," as evidenced by simplistic interpretations of the actions of tribes and nations subject to many outside pressures, withers in comparison to Tolkien's outright efforts to depict the absolute state of war between Elf and Orc. The Elves hated the Orcs more than almost any other servant of the Shadow because of the origins of the Orcs. In no way whatsoever would the Elves have sullied themselves by associating with the Orcs. Nor would the Orcs have associated with any of the Free Peoples, as Tolkien makes quite clear. "They hate us much more, and all the time. If they had seen us, they would have dropped their quarrel until we were both dead." (Frodo, The Land Of Shadow) I'm not sure how the Elves and Orcs would come to an understanding if neither would do more than slay the other.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Draken

...there will be no such alliance of Elves and Men

Originally Posted by Durin1

]there was nothing like a formal alliance between the elves and Gondor

People! I was not talking about an alliance, I was talking about DECENCY.
I understand the eagerness of all of you to defend the “beautiful Elves”, to keep their image untarnished.
But they themselves had been working hard on theirs discreditation since the dawn of the days .
In their traits they hardly different from Men : they could be greedy and mirthless, pretensious , gullible and deceivable.

It is not the question whether they had enough of people to send a help, because the ridiculous “wars” they had can’t compare in any way with the battles on Pelennore and Cormallen fields, which was crucial for a peaceful existence of the whole ME .
Cirdan and Elrond had not have a dare need to defend themselves at that time. Newertheless non of the living there mighty Noldor rushed to help to so much “favored” by them Aragorn in his grave struggle, save for Elladan and Elrohir. But even they, as I said before, was just a “Coronation Committee”, not an aid…

How you can dignify a person who is sitting in safe and beautiful garden looking at his neighbor’s house, engulfed in flame, and giving a prediction on what worse might happened, instesd of running out and offering whatever real help he can provide?

Originally Posted by Valandil

You would probably have a much greater base of knowledge than me for an attempt to 'debunk' his theories

Thanks for sicking one more Tolkien’s expert on me!!! Like I didn’t get enough of kicks from all around !!
(Sucking the air and seating himself comfortale on the ice-packs.) Truth hurts…

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

That is, since Tolkien didn't anticipate the assumption that Orcs carried Uzis, he didn't deny that they carried Uzis, and since he didn't deny as much, it must be true that they really did carry Uzis.

Since Tolkien did not deny that Orcs had been using some kind of machinery, invented by Saruman and Sauron, than he anticipated an assumption that the Orcs might carry some versions of guns, say Uzis, and since he did not deny as much, it must be true that they indeed really did carry Uzis.

[Attalus]

Oh, my. After that, what can one say? Actually, I can think of only one of the Noldor that was still around at that time and that was Galadriel. She was busy defending Lothlorien against Dol Guldur, and couldn't leave.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Thanks for sicking one more Tolkien’s expert on me!!! Like I didn’t get enough of kicks from all around !!
(Sucking the air and seating himself comfortale on the ice-packs.) Truth hurts…

Sorry Olmer. Honestly, my intent in calling attention to your theories has never been to make your life harder, though I can see how that's probably the end result.

I was just trying to explain to Michael that your theories might have more to them than the Uzi theory. Uh... you don't REALLY believe that about the Uzi's, do you?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Uh... you don't REALLY believe that about the Uzi's, do you?

Chill off man!... I just wanted to demonstrate that anything could have a different interpretation. Depends on how you are looking at it...and how you can hand it out.
Think, why lawyers are charging an astronomical fees for their service?
They are charging for a DIFFERENT INTERPRETATION of your misdemeanors.

No need to be sorry. I'm not really sitting on the ice-packs (wiping cold, slushing water from the chair)...

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Cirdan and Elrond had not have a dare need to defend themselves at that time. Newertheless non of the living there mighty Noldor rushed to help to so much “favored” by them Aragorn in his grave struggle, save for Elladan and Elrohir. But even they, as I said before, was just a “Coronation Committee”, not an aid…

Well, without extending full support to whatever else you have written (since I have not read anything else by you that I am aware of), I agree with you. The Eldar of Eriador did virtually nothing to help the War of the Ring, although Elrond did propose sending a couple members of his household along as members of the Fellowship.

However, they made the conscious decision, or the strategic choice, to do nothing at Elrond's council, because they believed that secrecy would serve everyone's purpose better in the long run. There was no time to build up another alliance against Sauron -- he was already launching attacks against his enemies. The Last Alliance of Elves and Men spent three years just marshalling, training, and equipping its northern hosts in Rivendell.

Since Tolkien did not deny that Orcs had been using some kind of machinery, invented by Saruman and Sauron, than he anticipated an assumption that the Orcs might carry some versions of guns, say Uzis, and since he did not deny as much, it must be true that they indeed really did carry Uzis.

Cute, but I'm not won over.

The Uzi Rule underscores the fallacy of arguments which are based upon assumptions intended to "fill in the blanks". The elements of the world depicted by Tolkien are not nearly as complete as the elements of the story he told, but we cannot supplement his elements with our own.

At best, we can look at what attested elements in the world Tolkien depicts imply should also be there. For example, since beer is mentioned, it follows that someone was growing barley. Since wains and wagons are mentioned, it follows that someone was making wheels. Since Gandalf used fireworks made in Dale and/or Erebor, it follows that the Orcs were not the only folks using gunpowder.

But there is nothing which provides for the inference of an Uzi in Middle-earth. Nor is there anything which provides for the inference of a nuclear bomb. Hence, we cannot just assume that they could or should have been there and conclude that, since Tolkien never denied they were there, therefore they MUST have been there.

That isn't a logical extrapolation. It's just wishful thinking, or rewriting Tolkien.

If anything, absence of denial proves how hopeless an argument is, if that is all it can offer in the way of proof of anything.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Since Tolkien did not deny that Orcs had been using some kind of machinery, invented by Saruman and Sauron, than he anticipated an assumption that the Orcs might carry some versions of guns, say Uzis, and since he did not deny as much, it must be true that they indeed really did carry Uzis.

After all, there was that mysterious explosion at the wall in Helms Deep.....sounds like gunpowder to me...and where there's gunpowder, Uzi's are soon to follow.

FB

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

This kind of has to do with this thread so I will post here instead of making a hole new thread. I was wondering if there were more men, and if not... why!?
It seems to me that Gondor, Rohan, and the Dunedain, seem to comprise way to few men on Middle Earth to have a dominant ratio. Were there more manish allies to Gondor and Co. that just didn't come to the fight? Or is it just Corsairs and Haradrim!?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

Well, without extending full support to whatever else you have written (since I have not read anything else by you that I am aware of),...

Well, if you ARE interested, here's a thread we started several months ago - when Olmer had been around for a few days and we started to piece together what he was saying. A few posts in particular will get you started. If you have the time, you may find it interesting, or amusing... or maybe it'll give your brain a little jolt (do you like shock therapy? ).

Olmer's Theories

Basically though, Olmer conceives of Gandalf and the Elves as 'users' of Men, Hobbits, whomever else they may make use of in order to accomplish their own ends. He particularly makes a strong point that Gandalf could (should?) have known immediately that Bilbo had found the One Ring. There's more, but I'd best let Olmer describe it in his own words. And... gotta hand it to him here, he seems consistent, tries to back up what he says and sticks to his guns (uh... I don't THINK they're Uzi's ).

At the very least, as he once pointed out to me when I got a bit sarcastic with him, it made our forum a bit more interesting when 'The Pants Game' was one of the more active threads.

And Olmer... hopefully at least your prior posts will set the stage for you, so you don't have to repeat everything again.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Were there more manish allies to Gondor and Co. that just didn't come to the fight?

The were Woodmen, Beorings, Men of Dale, Lossoths, Dunlendings, Woses, as I can recall.
In the Green Book on the One Ring.net it's an interesing chart which gives you a good idea how desperate was Gondor in his stand against Sauron.

I. Gondor and Allies
Sounthern Fiefs

Forlong (Lossarnach ) - 200 "well-armed"
Dervorin (Ringló Vale ) - 300
Duihir (Morthond ) - 500 "bowmen"
Golasgil (Anfalas) - 150 (est.) "scantly equipped"
--- (Larnedon ) - 50 (est.) "hillmen"
--- ( Ethir Anduin) - 100 "fisher-folk"
Hirluin (Pinnath Gelin) - 300
Imrahil ( Dol Amroth) 1200(est.)
(700 plus "company" on horse)

Guard of Minas Tirith

Denethor (Minas Tirith ) - 2,000 (est.)
Rohirrim
Théoden/Éomer (Rohan ) 6,000 Cavalry
Aragorn

Dúnedain (The North ) - 30
--- (Southern Fiefs) - 1,000 (est.)

Total Estimated Forces of Gondor 11,250

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

II. Mordor and Allies
Mordor and Morgul-host
Angmar/Gothmog (Barad-dûr, Minas Morgul) - 20,000 (est.)

Allies
Haradrim (Near and Far Harad) - 18,000
Others (Rhûn, Khand ) - 7,000 (est.)

Total Estimated Forces of Mordor 45,000

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Olmer

I didn’t talk about the Elves’ allegiance to anybody , but to their own words.

Apologies, I misinterpreted then.

Originally Posted by Valandil

Meanwhile, he sure keeps things 'interesting' around here. I don't think he has won any 'converts' yet, but he keeps trying.

And the ensuing discussions are interesting, even if we don't reach consensus.