Was the Ring Evil?

[Haradrim]

still just cuz our little rings forefather gold wasa tainted by evil doenst mean the our favorite rings gold is evil.

I know some of my arguments are getting ridiculous but you guys are giving me a run for the money.

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

Gold was among the elements that Melkor paid the most attention to when working on Arda, and one of thoses containing most of his evil essence. There are feferences to this in HoME, and an essay somewhere, by Michael Martinez, IIRC.

Many people make the argument that Sauron piggy-backed upon Morgoth's work when creating the One Ring. I can see why - Morgoth's "ring" would likely have contained the power that was needed for the construction of the ring, and as you say, Morgoth paid especial attention to gold. Remember the dwarves lust for gold? There's a pretty good reason right there... for believing that Morgoth's remnants were still strong.

[Haradrim]

Ah but doesnt the lust for gold mean that the dwarves liked the gold especially and not that the gold itself made the Dwarves want it?

Eru, you guys are good.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Haradrim

still just cuz our little rings forefather gold wasa tainted by evil doenst mean the our favorite rings gold is evil.

It means it is more susceptable to being evil, because of the essence used in its creation. This "Morgoth's element" in various substances, is however, more apt to be used ofr power (a key aspect of his nature) than just for evil ("ther is nothing greater in Arda than the power of Melkor" {Morgoth})

[BeardofPants]

We've had a bit of practice.

Okay, so what we have so far:

Sauron poured his malice and power into the ring.
Morgoth poured his malice and power into middle-earth; particularly focussing on gold.
Sauron forged his ring from gold within the fires of Mt. Doom - quite possibly one of the few focal points left in Middle-Earth that was still rich with the power of Morgoth.
The ring has a mind of it's own... of sorts. It can manipulate the bearer of the ring, as well as other rings of power, independent from Sauron.
It therefore stands that:

1. The ring has a form of sentience.
2. The ring was forged from a material that bore the mark of Morgoth.
3. The ring was imbued with malice, power, and corruption from Sauron.
4. The ring was concieved in an area that worked as a focal point of 'evil', concentrating the power of Morgoth.

EVERY aspect of the ring has been tampered with. It really doesn't stand a chance. Every component bears the mark of evil, and corruption.

[Haradrim]

yeah a new entrant in the duel... welcome to the thread.

more susceptible yes but is it evil. Men are susceptable to evil but are they all abd no there are a lot of good men too. (The evil ones are better though, GO HARADRIM) So just cuz the ring might have been evil doesnt mean it was evil.
Though it might have been. However if we were taking this to court a probably he is evil wouldnt win. HEHEHEHEHE

[Haradrim]

this is in response to BOP's post. My last was not.

Still the ring was overwhelmed by the evil powers which included a sentient
that sentientness was a power and therefore not part of the ring. Also the gold may hvae come from Mordor but that does not mean it was evil. It might be evil yes but is it witout a doubt evil. No Also just cuz it was made where there was huge evil doesnt mean it was evil. I think that we shoul take this like a court room case. There is no 100% vwithout any doubt proof cuz you still cant proove beyond doubt that the gold used was evil. this is fun. After this we should think of more technical issues and then debate semantics again.

[Sister Golden Hair]

There is no 100% vwithout any doubt proof cuz you still cant proove beyond doubt that the gold used was evil.

BoP, steal this guys pants right now! That's an order! Haradrim, the Ring was evil, the gold was evil, and its creator was evil. I will try to look it up in "Morgoth's Ring" about the gold. If Tolkien says that the gold, and the Ring was evil, then it was evil.

[Haradrim]

If you can show me where it mention sthe gold as being evil I wil conceed. but as of yet I find no absolute proof maintaining the evilness o fthe poor liitle ringiekims.

[Attalus]

Moreover, nothing is said of Sauron mining for gold. He is a powerful sorcerer. How do we know that he did not, in some awful alchemy, chage something else entirely into the gold that made the One Ring? Something had to hold the force, personality, and malevolence of the Ring? What better than gold , already tainted, but further altered into an uber-gold, the substance of the One Ring?

[Haradrim]

you mention that nowhere is he mentioned mining for gold. I would like you to mention the part where it talks about him making the gold. And even if he made the gold that doesnt make the ring evil it just means that he who made it was evil.

You guys are tough on me I need a break....

[Radagast The Brown]

The Ring was evil, from the beginning... let's see: Sauron forged a ring, golden one. It has no mind yet, so it can't really be evil... or good. Then, he puts much of its power in the ring, which makes some kind of mind in it - not even an independent one, more like one whom Sauron controls in 100%. I can't see how, somewhere in the middle, the Ring could have no been evil.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Haradrim

you mention that nowhere is he mentioned mining for gold. I would like you to mention the part where it talks about him making the gold. And even if he made the gold that doesnt make the ring evil it just means that he who made it was evil.

You guys are tough on me I need a break....

No, it's our part to supply quotes that bolsters our arguments. It is your role to find quotes that supports your totally unsupported, to my mind, argument. We are tough on you because you are wrong.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Haradrim

If you can show me where it mention sthe gold as being evil I wil conceed. but as of yet I find no absolute proof maintaining the evilness o fthe poor liitle ringiekims.

Alrighty Haradrim, this is what I found.

From Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, Volume 10, The Histories of Middle-earth series.

Moreover, the final eradication of Sauron (as a power directing evil) was achievable by the destruction of the Ring. No such eradication of Morgoth was possible, since this required the complete disintegration of the 'matter' of Arda. Sauron's power was not (for example) in gold as such, but in a particular form or shape made of a particular portion of total gold. Morgoth's power was disseminated throughout Gold, if nowhere absolute (for he did not create Gold) it was nowhere absent. (It was this Morgoth-element in matter, indeed, which was a prerequisite for such 'magic' and other evils as Sauron practised with it and upon it.)

It is quite possible of course, that certian 'elements' or conditions of matter had attracted Morgoth's special attention (mainly, unless in the remote past, for reasons of his own plans). For example, all gold (in Middle-earth) seems to have had a specially 'evil' trend - but not silver.

[BeardofPants]

Thanks Janet, upon seeing the call for proof, I was gonna pull that quote up myself.

Alrighty Haradrim, you snotty-nosed lil' punk; gimme your other pants! *snaffles his underoos as well* And THAT's for being an obnoxious debater!




NOW, can we agree?

The gold was tainted by Morgoth,
The ring was tainted by Sauron,
The constructs that bound the ring were by Sauron,
The ring worked independently of its bearer,
Upon destruction of the ring, Sauron was dissipated, proving that much of himself lay IN the ring,
The area in which the ring was made still bore the marks of Morgoth (and does to this age).

The ring was evil, the material was evil, the essence of the ring was evil. Sauron was a necromancer who would cunningly use gold - why? Because it conveyed power more easily, and he had the aid of his former master to help him in both the gold, and the Cracks of Mt. Doom.

edit: Haradrim: that quote I posted earlier with regards to "Morgoth's Ring" ties in directly with the quote that Janet posted. Morgoth's ring included the entirety of middle-earth, so it was rather impossible that the gold would not be tainted.

[Olmer]

Actually, I don't see in the ring any will (cunning or evil) .
It was conniving devise designed with EVIL INTENTIONS to perform certain planned tasks.
Let's look at the more or less obvious abilities of the Ring.
It is able:
1. to attract a potential ring-bearer ( Beats me, but if it holds your life-force, I don't see the clever reason of making a such creative way for your own destruction)
2. to dispatch the whereabouts of it to the Dark Forces.
3. to suck the life force out of the ring - bearer (Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo) turning him into the shell without his own will.
4. to establish mental connection between Sauron and the ring-bearer.
Judging by abovementioned characteristic one could say that the Ring is a some kind of powerful bio-magnetic transmitter.
It was programmed to seek the more powerful "donor" and works accordingly. It was crafty, but mindless thing, which doesn't need a powerful OWNER ( not bearer) and can work in full power by itself as long as will exist the receiving processor.

The One ring was not that powerful, as Gandalf tried to make everybody think, and probably made by Sauron not for his own use. The reason to believe in so we found in Gandalf’s own “slippage” He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it”. If Sauron, the owner of the Ring which supposedly holds his life-force, could think that he can live happily ever after the Ring’s destruction, he probably knows about it’s abilities much better than the Wizard.
Besides, the Ring did not have the real power to help the owner to be always in control of the situations . We can see from the history of the Ring that Sauron had never been successful in his campaigns even when he was CARRYING the One Ring on his finger. More then that he, the Maia, was defeated without any magic help by an ordinary mortal man - Isildur.
Also, it possible that the power abilities of the Ring was "a little bit" exaggerated by Sauron himself to make it look more desirable? After all it was designed FOR THE ELVES ONLY to "suck out" their everlasting energy and life force and to bring Sauron back in the flesh form.
The motives are clear, for..."long he sought to persuade the Elves to his service, for he knew that the Firstborn had the great power"… Sil.. But it turned out that to ensnare a Noldor is not as easy as to make servants out of Numenorians. So he .."consealed the dark designs that he shaped in his heart"..."hoping to accomplish by cunning what he could not achieve by force“ Sil. I suspect that he made this ring for a very specific task: to "rope" one of the keepers of The Three. To have a High Noldor under your subordination - you can’t wish for a better trophy!!!
This why the Ring’s inscription was written in Fёanorian Tengwar, the language of Noldor, which would look familiar or appealing to the High Elves only. And this why he made it VISIBLE, when the other rings (except the Dwarves 7 rings, for they had strong immunity to their affect) nobody could see. If it supposed to save his soul, why did he put the spell to inflame in a desire to own the "jewelry" and "rule them all" instead of the rightful owner, who would be destined to stay in the shadow?
(By the shape this ring also falls under category of “The wedding rings“. What if this old goat decided to get married, but got “butt off” from his perspective fiancée?)

I also think that the whole deal of this “great evil of the ring” was blown up by Gandalf and the Elves just to make the impression that the destruction of it - a great deed of saving the Middle-earth. In reality it was just some kind of transmitter, the magnet of the supreme energy, not designed to destroy the Middle-earth, but to destroy the Elves..

[Haradrim]

Okay, even though Olmer gives good arguments I now agree that since the gold was tainted with evil and the powers were evil and that since it was created by an evil person in an evil place that the ring is evil beyond doubt.
Eru, That whole thing was enjoyable. and, Bop, here are my pants.

[Radagast The Brown]

Olmer, the fact is, that when the Ring was destroyed Sauron has fallen with it. Meaning- it had a big part of his survival. It's hard to believe that Sauron wouldn't know the Ring exists - as it's part of him - so mayube Gandalf was wrong.

Also, Sauron's plans were clear in the Sil - at least to me - to make them do Rings, and make one Ring to rule them all, as the song says. It didn't work as Celebrimbor, who still had all the rings, felt him and didn't wear it again. (so, btw, there were no keepers of the three those days)

Wasn't the destruction of the Ring important? Without it, Sauron would've won the war. And get the Ring back.

[Haradrim]

If he had thought it was destroyed why would he have sent searchers for it. Also can Sauron be permanently destroyed. II dont think so. There is a place inLOTR where Gandalf says and we will crush him so muchh that we will never see himr rise again or something a long that. That says to me that he is not technically dead or ever will be until the end.

[Radagast The Brown]

He sent searchers only after he came to Dol Guldur, and then he knew about the Ring then. He probably didn't know in the first 1000 years of the 3rd age, or so.

No, Sauron wasn't 'totally' destroyed, as not living anymore. He's a maya, and it's not easy to kill them... impossible, unless they're somehow weakened, I believe (some believe you can). But he's powerless, and I don't think he can rise again.