What would the Balrog have done if the ring had fallen into his hands

[Brimstone]

Radagast The Brown
"Can you quote where Gandalf says it? I'm not saying you're wrong, just not sure... I've heard he said so."

Sure
It might take a while.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Brimstone

Also Gandalf said that Sauron highly coveted Moria, not only because of the orc-soldiers he could get there but because of Mithril. He made the orcs of Moria give all the pre-mined Mithril to him as tribute.

I don't think that it has been any tribute or even barter agreement between Moria dwellers and Sauron. If it would be other way, imagine an army of trolls in mithril armor. Br-r-r!!!

[Brimstone]

The Gaffer
"I agree with you, Earniel, that they may have been like big, ferocious dogs."

would Ilavatar create the maia with different levels of intelligence? Of cores not.

Olmer
In the Silmarillion Glaurung did more than the balrogs could ever have hoped to achieve,

Glaurung had a greater body than the balrogs. For instance,
Glaurung's scale's where so strong (except on his belly ) that only the axes of the Dwarf's of the first age could harm him. But the balrogs had a power in the wraith world. If a Balrog fought Glaurung, the Balrog would most likely win, since flame couldn't hurt a Balrog, and the Balrog's weapons could penetrate the dragon's scales.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Brimstone

would Ilavatar create the maia with different levels of intelligence? Of cores not.

He created them with different levels of power (Melkor being the greatest of the Ainur, for example), so why not different levels of intelligence or ambition?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Brimstone
Glaurung had a greater body than the balrogs. For instance,
Glaurung's scale's where so strong (except on his belly ) that only the axes of the Dwarf's of the first age could harm him. But the balrogs had a power in the wraith world. If a Balrog fought Glaurung, the Balrog would most likely win, since flame couldn't hurt a Balrog, and the Balrog's weapons could penetrate the dragon's scales.

Actually... It is not said that only the axes of the Dwarves could harm him. The elves and men couldn't fight him becauase of his flames, and the dwarves, because of their helmets and probably nature, could come closer to him and therefore attack him with their axes.

[Earniel]

It seems we have stumbled on another interesting Balrog-debate that doesn't revolves around their wings.

Originally posted by Brimstone
The Gaffer
"I agree with you, Earniel, that they may have been like big, ferocious dogs."

would Ilavatar create the maia with different levels of intelligence? Of cores not.

I never said Eru Iluvátar created the Balrogs with lesser intelligence on purpose. There is a difference IMO between how Eru Iluvátar created the Ainur and how they became when they entered the bounds of Arda and became the Valar and Maiar. When the Ainur took form here on Arda, they underwent changes and were tied to the element of their form.

Olmer
In the Silmarillion Glaurung did more than the balrogs could ever have hoped to achieve,

Glaurung had a greater body than the balrogs. For instance,
Glaurung's scale's where so strong (except on his belly ) that only the axes of the Dwarf's of the first age could harm him. But the balrogs had a power in the wraith world. If a Balrog fought Glaurung, the Balrog would most likely win, since flame couldn't hurt a Balrog, and the Balrog's weapons could penetrate the dragon's scales.

That was me who said that. Personally, I do not think a balrog would win of Glaurung. Flames are not the only strength of a dragon of Glaurung's stature. I wasn't talking about fysical power alone.

But Glaurung showed more independant thought than the balrogs in the Silmarillion and that's how he brought ruin to Nargothrond and Húrin's family. Whereas the balrogs merely followed Morgoth's orders.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Earniel
Glaurung showed more independant thought than the balrogs in the Silmarillion and that's how he brought ruin to Nargothrond and Húrin's family. Whereas the balrogs merely followed Morgoth's orders.
________________________
Plus dragons (Glaurung and Smaug) showed a wicked, and dark, sense of humor and/or irony, indicating an acute intelligence.

I haven't read much in them, but I believe it's been said by people on the Entmoot that in the HoME series balrogs show an evolution in Tolkien's concepts of them, so one question is what is the most definitive depiction of balrogs (not wings, but size, strength, and intelligence) that can be determined. I think it's possible that there's even a question of how definitive CT's edited Silmarillion is concerning them.
Of course, if they're so bright, how come the Moria one needed thousands of years beauty sleep? And apparently wasn't even curious about the outside world after those pesky dwarves woke (him?) up, but was contented to just hang out in Moria. (By the way, what did they eat, little orcsees- like Shelob)?

[Vicky]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
Of course, if they're so bright, how come the Moria one needed thousands of years beauty sleep? And apparently wasn't even curious about the outside world after those pesky dwarves woke (him?) up, but was contented to just hang out in Moria.

But if they were so stupid, how come it took Gandalf, who's also a Maiar and has the same powers, so long to win? Gandalf even died because of the fight...

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
(By the way, what did they eat, little orcsees- like Shelob)?

This question was bothering me also and I was looking through the books for some answer.
Now you probably will dismiss my posting like crazy idea, but based on the text of the book there was some kind agreement betwen Lorien and Moria. I think, barter: Lorien - food, Moria - precious metals, jewelry.

If I would write how I came to it ,it would be very long post, but I say that the hints on it I found in chapter VI of FOTR and chapter III of TTT.

Besides, somewhere in the book I have read that among Sauron's allies was also corrupted dwarves. If some dwarves could serve Sauron, naturally comes that some would stay in Moria just being "independent entrepreneurs", and their status on Moria's social ladder would not be on the last step .

Originally posted by Vicky But if they were so stupid, how come it took Gandalf, who's also a Maiar and has the same powers, so long to win? Gandalf even died because of the fight...

Gandalf was not allowed to reveal his real nature and real power.
Otherwise at the first moment of recognition of Gandalf's true indentity he would run away as fast as he can.

originally posted by Radagast the Brown
T... elves and men couldn't fight him becauase of his flames...

You forgot about Glorfindel...

[Vicky]

I find it hard to believe that a balrog, who's also a Maia, have a brain like a cavetrol, or a dog. I always thought that Maia's were some sort of halfgods and gods and halfgods are supposed to be intelligent...

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Vicky
But if they were so stupid, how come it took Gandalf, who's also a Maiar and has the same powers, so long to win? Gandalf even died because of the fight...

Stupidity has no negative effect on strength, the balrog was immensely strong, fysical and seemingly also with some magic (since The Gaffer reminded me of that, I had indeed forgotten )

Originally posted by Vicky
I find it hard to believe that a balrog, who's also a Maia, have a brain like a cavetrol, or a dog. I always thought that Maia's were some sort of halfgods and gods and halfgods are supposed to be intelligent...

I've always thought Maiar come in many different shapes and sizes.

I wouldn't go so far as giving a balrog the intelligence of a cave trol or a dog. I do think they're more intelligent than that but definitely not as intelligent as Sauron, dragons or Nazguls. Maybe I'm still running on Tolkien's older ideas of balrogs, since the concept of balrogs did change somewhat in the writing. But somehow balrogs struck me as not having the intelligence of Morgoth's other powerful servants. They have (as it seems to me) an unimaginative, dependant, focussed only on strength and battle sort of intelligence.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Olmer

You forgot about Glorfindel...

He killed a Balrog, not a dragon.

This question was bothering me also and I was looking through the books for some answer.
Now you probably will dismiss my posting like crazy idea, but based on the text of the book there was some kind agreement betwen Lorien and Moria. I think, barter: Lorien - food, Moria - precious metals, jewelry.

If I would write how I came to it ,it would be very long post, but I say that the hints on it I found in chapter VI of FOTR and chapter III of TTT.

Besides, somewhere in the book I have read that among Sauron's allies was also corrupted dwarves. If some dwarves could serve Sauron, naturally comes that some would stay in Moria just being "independent entrepreneurs", and their status on Moria's social ladder would not be on the last step .

It would be actually intersating to hear how you got the idea, Olmer.

Gandalf was not allowed to reveal his real nature and real power.
Otherwise at the first moment of recognition of Gandalf's true indentity he would run away as fast as he can.

I don't think Gandalf was so powerful.
I agree with Earniel, the balrog was strong, and Gandalf, no matter that he was the wisest of the Maiar as said in the Silmarillion, couldn't overcome him.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown


It would be actually intersating to hear how you got the idea, Olmer.

All right. here it is.

Considering a huge amount of Moria’s dwellers you can’t help to ask a question: how did they provide for themselves in stony, barren, unsuitable for unsupported life underground? Pilferage and robbery of neighborhood villages definitely won’t be enough . Since we didn’t find any mentions of orcs raising a livestock on Caradhras’ terraces, or Sauron’s convoys with humanitarian help , it implies that they have to have some other source of the foodstuff supply. A barter would be the next suggestion.
But what Moria can offer for a food? A precious stones and metals, and in unlimited quantity.
So, who could be interested in the time of unrest to exchange food for gems? They, who always had a longing for a beautiful jewelry.
That right, the despised, dirty orcs had an agreement with the Elves, and not with “just elves”, but with the Elves of Lothlorien.

Now the Elves-lovers will start throwing stones at me for such abominable insinuation .
But wait a minute, it’s not my saying.
J.R.R.T himself reveals this conception of existence of some kind agreement in very gracious and subtle way, you just have to be a little analytical while reading.

Let start with time when the Fellowship met the guards of Golden Woods, when Frodo woke late at night.
”The Elves were gone…A little way off he heard a harsh laugh and the thread of many feet on the ground below.There was a ring of metal. The sounds died slowly away, and seemed to go southward, on onto the woods.”
(FOTR,BookII) You don’t have to be an expert on military's spy-diversion activities to know that this is not the way of walking through the full of enemies woods. More so, this laugh and noise was intended to make a forewarning of theirs passing a way ahead, otherwise in confusion you could get an arrow in your back. This troop of orcs had no intention to fight with elves, they more resembles a troop of policemen which in height of chase crossed neighbor’s state line, but weren't worry too much about being certain of the cooperation due an agreement .

Soon comes Haldir to give Frodo an account of event :” The three of us couldn’t challenge a hundred (100), so we went ahead and spoke with feigned voices, letting them on into the woods. …None of the Orcs will ever return out of Lorien”.
Then later Haldir “REPORTED” to the Company a news that ” the marauding orcs has been waylaid and ALMOST ALL DESTROYED, the remnants has fled…towards the mountains and being pursued”. So, all troop of more than 100 orcs has been destroyed. Right?
Wrong!
Now, let see what orcs are talking about after capturing Merry and Pippin “Not our orders!…We have come all the way from the Mines to kill, and avenge our folk. I wish to kill, and then go back north.”(TTT,Chapt.III)
Did you get it? From the MINES. From the Moria mines!
Is not it that same “killed in Lorien”orcs? The same, the same!
The Professor tells us about it in very conspiratory way :he just gives us the number and hopes that we will
put two and two together : Northerners broke away… over a hundred of them…”
Of course , the numbers are approximate, but any way the amount of Northern orcs entering Lorien woods and orcs leaving the Falls of Rauros about the same.
None of them was killed in Lorien by elves, they were allowed to pass, and in the light of this facts I could suggest that the Elves and Orcs of Moria had some kind of pact. Since both sides was very much interested in dealing with enemy, I assume that the reason should be to get something unattainable for them in any other way than through exchange . Which means barter.

[Vicky]

I read somewhere that the orcs attacked travellers and killed goats to get food. The tekst also said that they worshiped the balrog and like in so many cultures that could be seen in their armour in witch they tried to imitate the balrog and that they also gave him offers. It didn't say what kind of offers but I think it's very possible that it was some sort of food.

[Earniel]

Hm, as interesting as your theory is, Olmer, I can't see the Lothlórien Elves trade with the Moria Orcs. It's like, I don't know, the Witch King going shopping for night-dark cloaks in Minas Tirith...

[Lefty Scaevola]

Conspiracy theories are a dime a dozen; such as: We have not record of the Mouth of Saurons body being found after the colapse of Mordor, and we all know Sauron can reappear sometime in the long furture after his fall. Could either one now be posting on this forum?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Olmer
...Let start with time when the Fellowship met the guards of Golden Woods, when Frodo woke late at night.
”The Elves were gone…A little way off he heard a harsh laugh and the thread of many feet on the ground below.There was a ring of metal. The sounds died slowly away, and seemed to go southward, on onto the woods.”
(FOTR,BookII) You don’t have to be an expert on military's spy-diversion activities to know that this is not the way of walking through the full of enemies woods. More so, this laugh and noise was intended to make a forewarning of theirs passing a way ahead...

Soon comes Haldir to give Frodo an account of event :” The three of us couldn’t challenge a hundred (100), so we went ahead and spoke with feigned voices, letting them on into the woods. …None of the Orcs will ever return out of Lorien”.
Then later Haldir “REPORTED” to the Company a news that ” the marauding orcs has been waylaid and ALMOST ALL DESTROYED, the remnants has fled…towards the mountains and being pursued”. So, all troop of more than 100 orcs has been destroyed. Right?
Wrong!
Now, let see what orcs are talking about after capturing Merry and Pippin “Not our orders!…We have come all the way from the Mines to kill, and avenge our folk. I wish to kill, and then go back north.”(TTT,Chapt.III)
Did you get it? From the MINES. From the Moria mines!
Is not it that same “killed in Lorien”orcs? The same, the same!
The Professor tells us about it in very conspiratory way :he just gives us the number and hopes that we will
put two and two together : Northerners broke away… over a hundred of them…”
Of course , the numbers are approximate, but any way the amount of Northern orcs entering Lorien woods and orcs leaving the Falls of Rauros about the same.
None of them was killed in Lorien by elves, they were allowed to pass, and in the light of this facts I could suggest that the Elves and Orcs of Moria had some kind of pact. Since both sides was very much interested in dealing with enemy, I assume that the reason should be to get something unattainable for them in any other way than through exchange . Which means barter.

OK Olmer - in keeping my promise from the other thread, here's where you had an interesting point and got me thinking... about a hundred orcs from the Misty Mountains in each case... coincidence?

As for keeping all the evil armies of the world fed, clothed and otherwise supplied, I had sort of figured that Prof Tolkien was more interested in simply telling his story than in working out all those logistics. Still... I see where you draw support for your theories on this.

Lefty has a point too though (just prior to this post of mine)... and I really haven't been on Tolkien message boards long enough to have run across various 'conspiracy theories' (and I don't mean that in an insulting or condescending way Olmer... just meaning the POV you take that, 'things are not as they are made to appear on the surface')... this being my first MB and only having been on it for about 8 months.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Could either one now be posting on this forum?

He already has, and even has his own web site featuring a spectacularly dodgy Flash movie. I think I spotted him at the G8 meeting too

[Count Comfect]

About the Moria orcs- you could also (as I do) look at the "avenge our folk" as also avenging those who Haldir etc. killed. And if more than 100 Northeners broke away, did they ALL get away? Because otherwise the numbers no longer match because there are 100+however many don't escape in Rohan vs. 100 in Lorien.

Oh, and as a student of military history, lots and lots of companies have made much more noise trying to sneak through enemy territory and a harsh laugh and the sound of feet and metal. In fact, that's about as quiet as one could expect a medieval army (and that's what the technological level is) to be. So there is no need to assume that they are being let through. Sure, a modern army makes a LOT less noise, but medieval technology doesn't let you do that.

But a very interesting theory, as usual. I still disagree, but that doesn't mean it isn't very well thought out.

[Olmer]

You all pointed out on the weak sides of my theory. Thanks for taking your time to “get into it”.
Now I will try to work in this points , or just give more insights on some aspects.
Also, I want you to know that my silence was due to serious sickness in the family.
It was no need for apologies , but still they were wholeheartedly accepted .I guess that being labeled as local crank sometimes could get through my thick skin and sometimes you want , if not an agreement, but at least an acknowledge that this theories ,as unusual as they are, came through the suggestions in the text given by Tolkien himself ,and therefore should be viewed with the same respect as any others based on popular believe and public acceptance of the story as it is.

Eärniel Hm, as interesting as your theory is, Olmer, I can't see the Lothlórien Elves trade with the Moria Orcs. It's like, I don't know, the Witch King going shopping for night-dark cloaks in Minas Tirith…

I quoted Tolkien’s words, but you can not see, or just don‘t want to see. O.K, then tell us to what conclusion about Moria’s provision you came up after reading the book.?
Do you have some plausible alternative, which is based on the text? Just don’t say that Tolkien didn’t think about it, because, as I see from the study of the text , he DID think about it.

Valandil
As for keeping all the evil armies of the world fed, clothed and otherwise supplied, I had sort of figured that Prof Tolkien was more interested in simply telling his story than in working out all those logistics. Still... I see where you draw support for your theories on this.

Professor was not interested in “simply telling his story”, his concern was in CONVEYING the message about the events of long gone world, glimpses of which was coming to him as separate visions of the whole big picture, but the links between the fragments was always there.(The stories) arose in my mind as “GIVEN“ THINGS, and as they came, separately, so too the links grew…yet always I had the sense of “recording” what was already “THERE” somewhere not of “inventing“…Letter#131
As he admitted , in some cases, when taking ”largely impersonal view “on the LOTR, he himself had been surprised with findings that the base canvas of the story seems giving a quite different interpretation of events. The links between events was missing and he had to “think up” some explanations of things which didn’t “add up”, like the case of Isildur’s dishonorable death.
Tolkien always felt that he is ”reporting “ the events “ imperfectly”, that the story of the book consists the vistas of yet more legend and history.
If he would be interested in just telling the story, as many authors do nowadays, he wouldn’t go through “colossal” labor of ”re-writing backwards” trying to work out all these logistic between separate visions of the story as it has been “given”to him , detailing up to boreness in the field of geography, societies structure, linguistics and folklore. Naturally, he can overlook some aspects, but it doesn’t mean that it was not “there“.

Valandil OK Olmer - in keeping my promise from the other thread, here's where you had an interesting point and got me thinking... about a hundred orcs from the Misty Mountains in each case... coincidence?

"Hardly a word in its 600.000 or more has been unconsidered.
And the placing, size, style, and contribution to the whole of all the futures, incidents and chapters has been laboriously pondered"

Considering the above given Professor’s statement and the fact that he mentioned 3 TIMES the number of Northerners, and every time it was +/- 100, you can’t sign it off as “coincidence”, because it has a persistent repetition .
The Orcs , which captured Merry and Pippin, “did not wish to fight “or avenge, they came here with THE ORDER, they had nothing against the Fellowship.Boromir force them to fight and managed to get away. But in a little while they met another group “a hundred Orcs at least” who right away began to shoot arrows, they came there with different purpose: to avenge.
If Tolkien cared to mention even smallest # of orcs which was getting killed each time, I’m sure the whole given numbers was very much considered .

Count Comfect And if more than 100 Northerners broke away, did they ALL get away? Because otherwise the numbers no longer match because there are 100+however many don't escape in Rohan vs. 100 in Lorien.

Yes, they ALL, or almost all got away .Don’t forget that Haldir was not giving exact number of orcs, he was speaking figuratively:
“The three of us could not challenge a hundred”, so it could be 100 +, about the same amount of Northerners which “broke away” before the raid of Rohirrim.As I mentioned above, those 20 orcs, which got killed by Boromir, was from the different , SS (Sauron-Saruman), company, they had an ORDER and was not looming through the woods, but concealing themselves quietly in one place, listening.

Count Comfect About the Moria orcs- you could also (as I do) look at the "avenge our folk" as also avenging those who Haldir etc. killed.

May I ask you WHY did they GO TO RAUROS looking for Elves to “avenge”? Did the Elves dwell there?
The answer is obvious: they was not looking for the Elves, and when they was ambushing company at Sarn Gebir, this Orcs were tried to kill everyone.
They DID NOT have an order to capture the hobbits.They come all the way down with a different agenda.
Then here is arising another question: why all orcs met exactly at Rauros? How did they know that the company will go down the river by boats and won’t take another route? From where the 3 different companies of orcs have got the information where is the best place to ambush the Fellowship?
From those, why advised the company to go to Rauros and provided them with boats - the Lorien’s elves, precisely.

I can easily imagine missing by Professor scene, which had happened down on the ground, while Frodo is sitting in the dark, listening as orcs are passing by.
“Suddenly clad in gray, tall and grim figure appeared in front of the orc’s leader .
“You! Idiots!What the hell you doing here in the middle of the night?” demanded the Elf in shrill whisper.
“Ugh!“ the leader stop dead on the track, tensed, but visibly relaxed, recognizing the Elf.”A-a, Haldir!Glad that you, old monkey, did not fall, yet, from the tree.Think your boys won’t mind our noise. We just passing by, chasing after nine thugs, who barged into our house.All Moria’s floor covered with blood! We are looking for revenge .”
“Get out of here! It ‘s such politics involved in it, that you and I could get expendable without a second thought!
Wait for them near Rauros, they definitely will come there by our boats,”ordered Haldir.
“Ho! So serious? Rauros then…Let’s go, boys!
By the way, Haldir, do you know is bracelet for my girlfriend ready, yet? She is asking me about it every day. Tell them to hurry up. See yua“…