The Lord of the Rings discussion: Chapters 3 and 4

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Valandil's quote above (Frodo/Pippin) is actually quite revealing about Frodo's character (and, parenthetically, how PJ's movie got it wrong).
Frodo has some knowledge (presumably from Bilbo) about elvish history, character, and language. He is a responsible agent, able, to some extent, to read others motives and intentions, and even react with bemusement and objectivity to frustrating and/or unexpected situations. In a way, he's had to grow up when Gandalf isn't there rather like Bilbo in The Hobbit.
I don't recall any mention by JRRT anywhere of Bilbo's education of Frodo, but his "home schooling" must have been remarkably
deep, not just for a hobbit but for anyone of the late Third Age.

Speaking of which, were there any hobbit schools, or libraries?
Written literature was always relatively rare in pre-industrial societies, although given elvish longevity and scholarship, they would presumably have overcome this hurdle at least for themselves. Minas Tirith as the Library of Alexandria? And what of a similar library in Arnor?

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
.. his "home schooling" must have been remarkably
deep, not just for a hobbit but for anyone of the late Third Age.

And what of a similar library in Arnor?

Somehow in Frodo's description his unusially extensive schooling by Bilbo has been like brief skimming across the surface.
Thanks for specifically to point out on it one more time.

Library of Arnor?
Probably was burned down just like Carthange or Alexandria.
It said that Alexandria's books burned to heat the city's 600 public bath.
Imagine how much information without trace went up into smoke.
What a pity!

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
4. A parallel to WW I in the four hobbits seems apparent. Frodo the young, intellectual Lieutenant, Sam, a gritty, unassuming noncom or batman doing much of the practical work of survival, and Merry and Pippin the privates. All four would much rather have stayed home, but slogged on to do their duty and try to save their people and their life-style. Oh, and Fatty Bolger keeping the home fires burning?

It seems to me that Merry and Pippin are "upper class", like Frodo, rather than privates. These chapters establish Sam's subservient social position very clearly, and also start to show how it will be overturned by events.

For example, Pippin wakes up and starts ordering Sam about; Sam takes the orders but Frodo intervenes and kicks Pippin out of bed. There's also the comment Pippin makes about how Sam has taken more than his fair share of stuff.

Any thoughts?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Perhaps Pippin and Merry could be viewed as university students and Sam as a college scout, like those who didn't stay to graduate in WWI before enlisting, as there was pressure on JRRT to do.

Wonder what the mascots for SU (Shire University), Took Tech, and the College of the Buckland would be? Competitive sports would, of course, include golf. And the Eriador cup grudge match with Bree would probably produce golf hooligans.

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
It seems to me that Merry and Pippin are "upper class", like Frodo, rather than privates. These chapters establish Sam's subservient social position very clearly, and also start to show how it will be overturned by events.

For example, Pippin wakes up and starts ordering Sam about; Sam takes the orders but Frodo intervenes and kicks Pippin out of bed. There's also the comment Pippin makes about how Sam has taken more than his fair share of stuff.

Any thoughts?

Well, the Shire seems to me to like an English village at the beginning of the last century. You have your local gentry, your farmers, your shop keepers and tradesmen, and then your average low class. Sam seems to belong to the last, Frodo to the local gentry. Merry and Pippin also since they are from the Took and Brandybuck families, both of them more important than the Baggins (though Frodo is part of the family too).

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
It seems to me that Merry and Pippin are "upper class",

Well yeah, they are the scions of the two highest aristocratic families in the shire, so far as we know, the only two such families with inheritable territorial power. Pipin, as the the heir of the Thain (the representavie of royal authority and Master of the shire muster) would in truth be the 'Prince of Hobbits" as called in gondor. The Bolgers are also metioned as aritocratic, but there is no formal metion of a heriditable title/authority such as Thain or Master of Buckland.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

To add a bit to LS's comments above:

From Robert Foster'sthe complete guide to Middle-earth:

MASTER OF BUCKLAND The head of the Brandybuck family. The authority of the Master was acknowledged in the Marish as well as in Buckland, but his rule was largely nominal. In FO 12 the Master of Buckland, who at that time was Meriadoc Brandybuck, was made a Counsellor of the North-Kingdom.
The Masters of Buckland had attributive titles added to their names, probably by the chroniclers.
Also called the Master of the Hall, snce the Master of Buckland lived in Brandy Hall.

[Olmer]

Since nobody can add something new, I decided to put my thoughts about Chapter IV, even if majority would find it too ridiculous for their academic taste. But if Tolkien quite unexpectedly for himself could read his book and be amused by finding a new interpretations of the written events (Letter 163)), then it quite possible that in his text you can find much more interpretation which could be missed by the professor .I amuse myself in the way just like Tolkien was doing some time ago.

So, the chapter begins with Frodo being noticeably upset about outcome of the meeting with Elves.Clearly, he was hoping to get some explanation of the recent frightful events and some advise on how to deal with it, but instead he got only �hints and riddles�. His trip, which from the beginning seemed like fun, now is turning out too dangerous not for him only, but for his happy , unsuspected companions. He feels responsible for their safety, but unable to come with any idea how to protect them. This why he is evasive and even bitter in answering seems unconcerned Pippin’s questions about the black riders.
�Did you find anything about them from Gildor?…I am sure it is very important.�
“ In that case I am sure Gildor would have refused to explain it�, said Frodo sharply.
But in spite of the solemn mood the end of their conversation brings a chuckle.
�I don’t want to answer a string of questions while I am eating. I want to think.�
“ Good heavens!� said Pippin “ At BREAKFAST?�
And later he was mocking on Frodo’s unusual for hobbits breakfast habit:
�We are only waiting for you to finish eating and THINKING.�

Next, I think, comes the very important part, which in future will affect the course of many events : Sam’s overnight change.
�Frodo looked at Sam rather startled, half expecting to see some outward sign of the odd change that seems to have come over him. It did not sound like the voice of the old Sam Gamgee that he thought he knew.� An uncomplicated gardener, who eagerly went out on this trip just for a sole purpose that he “dearly love to see� the elves, all of the sudden became totally devoted to the main cause. After the heart-to-heart talk with the Elves, who (not surprisingly) �seemed to know� that Frodo is going away �to take a very long road into darkness�, Sam “feel different� and he know that he �can’t turn back�. And, yes, he feels and behave differently.
�Don’t leave him�, the elves said to Sam, and after this suggestive order (we already know that the elves can induce an influence by theirs transfixing abilities), his devotion to the Master steady grew into something abnormal, comparable with Gollum’s manic-obsessive dependency. Even the Ring does not affect him! His watchfulness reaches such height that all the way to Mordor he, seems to me, doesn’t even sleep. In essence , he turned out into zealous never tiring (robotic) bodyguard. All this transformation will happen slowly over the time, but the roots of it was in the first meeting with the Elves.

Finally the company reaches farmer Maggot’s farmland, and here we found that Frodo has his own private fears which go back to his childhood. It was interesting to learn that young Frodo Baggins was not a quiet “Harry Potter� type little hobbit surrounded with books, but ’ one of the worst young rascals of Buckland.� But nevertheless Bilbo saw kid’s potentials and favor him out of all other his cousins.
During the meeting with an old farmer his childhood terror was lost and now he was sorry that because of it for so many years he �had missed a good friend�. And indeed this formidable at the first glance fellow is , down-to-earth, good natured, but brave farmer, who is living on “frontier� and he not afraid and know how to deal with troubles. Through his sharp observance we found out that Gandalf’s plan with Bilbo’s disappearance and then Frodo’s move out would be quite successful in throwing the Enemy’s spies off the track, because the Black Riders �as like it or not it is old Mr. Bilbo they want to hear of “ , and if old Gaffer would say that Mr. Baggins just disappeared (which is quite true) and didn’t blab out about Bucklebury, they would be quite lost.

Mushroom cooking dilemma? Of course, fried with “taters� mushrooms with sprinkle of fresh herb, preferably dill or parsley, will suit hobbit’s taste just perfectly.

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by Olmer
Since nobody can add something new, I decided to put my thoughts about Chapter IV, . . .

Mushroom cooking dilemma? Of course, fried with “taters� mushrooms with sprinkle of fresh herb, preferably dill or parsley, will suit hobbit’s taste just perfectly.

Olmer,

What I enjoy about your thoughts on LOTR is that (at least from my perspective) there is some textual basis on which you base your theories concerning the motives and planning of characters in LOTR.

I do not really agree with the conclusions you reach via your reasoning. Though, I do think that it is well thought out.

I think that it generally runs the course of looking for more complicated explaination for everything (I use the term "everything" a bit loosely) when a simplier explanation is available.

I think your thoughts on mushrooms sound delightful.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Mushroom eh? Chop a small amount of bacon and reder in a pan, add some butter, olive oil, minced shallot, and chopped fresh Thyme (a wonderous match with mushrooms, remeber that if nothing else from this forum) put in sliced mushrooms, regular varities with some fancy/wild ones to add flavor(amazing what a few shitatke or morels can do), cook at as high a heat as you can get without burning the oil mixture, until they have given off some water and shrunk a bit, then a good slug of madeira wine, some slat and white pepper, high heat until the liquid is reduced to just a glaze.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Mushroom eh? Chop a small amount of bacon and reder in a pan, add some butter, olive oil, minced shallot, and chopped fresh Thyme (a wonderous match with mushrooms, remeber that if nothing else from this forum) put in sliced mushrooms, regular varities with some fancy/wild ones to add flavor(amazing what a few shitatke or morels can do), cook at as high a heat as you can get without burning the oil mixture, until they have given off some water and shrunk a bit, then a good slug of madeira wine, some slat and white pepper, high heat until the liquid is reduced to just a glaze.

Ummmm .... do I get hungry ...... pretty please Lefty, may I come to your table?

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
Speaking of which, were there any hobbit schools, or libraries?

I doubt there were any common schools, from the Gaffer's remarks about Bilbo teaching Sam the letters, the ability to read was not considered necessary or even wanted among the lower class Hobbits. Though it seems like the upper class could read and write, so there must have been some sort of education, but maybe it was kept within the families.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The was no general public school system, the only public services being listed were the post and the sheriffs/borderers. There likely were private schools and some possibly some community public schools in the towns.

[Rían]

Reading about mushrooms reminded me of the bit I re-read just last night (I'm a bit behind in my re-reading) - a little line about Hobbits hunting. When Sam was talking about possibly seeing "Tree-men" in the Shire, and that his cousin Hal had seen one, he says "He works for Mr. Boffin at Overhill and goes up to the Northfarthing for the hunting." Sounds like an organized event, but I just can't picture hobbits hunting in a major organized fashion - I always pictured them just raising their meat. Perhaps the hunting consists of walking around a bit, then just coming back for the feast!

Anyhoo - chpts. 3 and 4 ...

I love that little part about Pippin getting water, too, Valandil. It just makes you feel more "there" and also makes you connect with the characters more.

And I always wondered about Gildor, too - seems a bit strange that he didn't help more, yet took the time and trouble to "spread the word" about Frodo. Or maybe this is another evidence of the "chance" happenings that are in the book - maybe Gildor and co. bumped into a major group of Elves heading back to Rivendell the next day and filled them in ...

I like how Frodo wanted to leave in the autumn on their birthday - how it somehow seemed the "proper" day to set out. And that little line how they left the washing-up for Lobelia and Sam saying farewell to the beer-barrel in the cellar.

The Black Riders were just masterful - really creepy!

And what in the world did Gildor's people do with all the dishes? ("Some went to and fro bearing cups and pouring drink; others brought food on heaped plates and dishes.") Did they leave the washing-up for the forest animals, or do they use biodegradable dishes? I've always wondered...

[Valandil]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
...about Hobbits hunting. When Sam was talking about possibly seeing "Tree-men" in the Shire, and that his cousin Hal had seen one, he says "He works for Mr. Boffin at Overhill and goes up to the Northfarthing for the hunting." Sounds like an organized event, but I just can't picture hobbits hunting in a major organized fashion - I always pictured them just raising their meat. Perhaps the hunting consists of walking around a bit, then just coming back for the feast!

Hmmm... I never thought about it much either. On the other hand though, Sam was familiar with 'stewed rabbit' - and I don't know if they would raise rabbits or not. I expect they likely hunted small game like rabbits and squirrels... maybe foul like geese and quail - maybe even an occasional 'big' animal like a deer or boar??? They were good with arrows, right?

Originally posted by RÃ*an
And what in the world did Gildor's people do with all the dishes? ("Some went to and fro bearing cups and pouring drink; others brought food on heaped plates and dishes.") Did they leave the washing-up for the forest animals, or do they use biodegradable dishes? I've always wondered...

Maybe they had 'stashes' of dishes at all their regular 'stopping points'. And maybe the food and drink were SO good, nothing was left to clean off the plate!

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Valandil
Maybe they had 'stashes' of dishes at all their regular 'stopping points'. And maybe the food and drink were SO good, nothing was left to clean off the plate!

Very possible. I'm thinking, since they obviously went to that place from time to time, I'm not surprised if they would have hidden some items there that they could take out and use on their next visit.

[Lefty Scaevola]

They carried much with them. Standard USA army pack is about 70 pounds, including a mess kit. Noldor would avaerge large (if they had not "faded" too much), were less subject to ills like blisters and so forth, and ought to be able to carry even more.

[Rían]

I guess so - but Elves lugging backpacks with little water bottles hanging off them and pans bumping around just doesn't fit into my mental picture

Of course, Fingon went into Mordor lugging his harp ...

[Lizra]

I imagine the "dishes" being very organic...foldable, bendable, amazing sorts of woven leaf, bark, or grass-like materials, that pack away to lightweight nothingness...you know, sort of "magic"!

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by Lizra
I imagine the "dishes" being very organic...foldable, bendable, amazing sorts of woven leaf, bark, or grass-like materials, that pack away to lightweight nothingness...you know, sort of "magic"!

Elven magic.

Similar to elves that live in a tree and bake cookies.

Actually, I do not see why there couldn't be one or more elves that are similar to sam and carry enough cooking/eating gear with them.

Maybe the elves are able to make makeshift utensils from the natural surroundings.

Maybe they have a stash of equipment (as some suggested) similar to the rangers with their wood supplies.

[edit]
Of course we are probably just reading too much in to the story and not just enjoying the story for what it is. A story.
[/edit]

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Lizra
I imagine the "dishes" being very organic...foldable, bendable, amazing sorts of woven leaf, bark, or grass-like materials, that pack away to lightweight nothingness...you know, sort of "magic"!

Patent those and you could make a mint!