The Lord of the Rings discussion: Chapter 1, A Long-expected Party

[brownjenkins]

i think the doubling of the watch was gandalf playing it safe... along with him wanting to find out if sauron was looking for bilbo's ring (i.e. he wanted to be the first to know if people were looking)

if he had the slightest suspicion that sauron knew about the ring he would have sent bilbo or frodo to rivendell on the spot with the ring... certainly a safer place... even in the shire, the ring would not have remained hidden for all the following years if sauron knew where to look

and in fact, once he did have evidence that sauron had suspicions, his first reaction was to have frodo head to rivendell

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Valandil
I think you have it wrong Olmer... Gandlaf was quite 'hands-off' about the whole thing, except for his insistence that Bilbo NOT take it with him. He did not plan where Bilbo would go after leaving the Shire - that was entirely up to Bilbo. He thought it prudent to keep Bilbo's ring in a place where he could know where it was at all times, observe it if needed, etc.

Why he is in such great need to "observe' the seems not so extaordinary little trinket?
Why he prefered to hande it with somebody else hands? Bilbo gave this ring up. Why he needed to give it to Frodo, instead of taking it to Imladris and 'observe' it there? Is it not a better place for safekeeping for unimportant ring with little magic abilities?
Because he KNEW of its damaging power and didn't want to put at risk himself or elves.
But ,hey, who cares about little gulible hobbits! It is too many of them, any way!

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Olmer
Why he is in such great need to "observe' the seems not so extaordinary little trinket?
Why he prefered to hande it with somebody else hands? Bilbo gave this ring up. Why he needed to give it to Frodo, instead of taking it to Imladris and 'observe' it there? Is it not a better place for safekeeping for unimportant ring with little magic abilities?
Because he KNEW of its damaging power and didn't want to put at risk himself or elves.
But ,hey, who cares about little gulible hobbits! It is too many of them, any way!

I think you're either being silly - or greatly misunderstand Tolkien's depiction of Gandalf:
* He didn't necessarily think there was a 'great need' to observe it - but he probably wanted to hedge his bets.
* He didn't take it to Imladris at the time because that would have been taking it FROM its rightful owner. Stealing it, basically.
* He has already suspected that the ring was at least a Ring of Power, but had not imagined before the Party that it was The One Ring.
* He cared every bit as much for the hobbits as he did for the elves.

As we see from later in the story, and from other source material on Gandalf and the other wizards, their whole purpose was to raise opposition to Sauron and to preserve WHATEVER they may of what was good in Middle-earth.

[BeardofPants]

Olmer, I think you're wrong as well. At this stage in time, Gandalf only has an inkling (heehee) that something is wrong. This is evidenced in the next chapter when we see an at length discussion of Gandalf's 'research'.

Can we bring in HoME stuff, or is that completely off limits?

[Lizra]

The story is set!

"It (Bilbo's perpetual youth and inexhaustible wealth) will have to be paid for," they (hobbit gossipers) said. "It isn't natural, and trouble will come of it!"

..."Don't go getting mixed up in the business of your betters, or you'll land in trouble too big for you."......the Gaffer to Sam....

I think the word "drownded" is hilarious. also..."it was Drogo's weight as sunk the boat."

Jools!

[Tuor of Gondolin]

"I think the word "drownded" is hilarious. also..."it was Drogo's weight as sunk the boat." "
_______________________
But: "And I heard she pushed him in, and he pulled her in after him".

Perhaps not surprising, since they were fooling around with a boat on a big river "and that ain't natural."

[Rían]

Thanks for the intro, Cass! I love the title of the chapter, too - such a great tie-in to the Hobbit!

I love the opening sentence - I wonder how long he worked on how to open this book?

I like very much the little character picture of Bilbo in the 4th paragraph - the fact that "he had many devoted admirers among the hobbits of poor and unimportant families."

I like the comfortable way that Bilbo invited Frodo into his house : "You had better come and live here, Frodo my lad, an then we can celebrate our birthday-parties comfortably together." Just such a humble and unassuming way to be very generous and loving to the orphaned Frodo.

I like the "Drownded", too!

I like the Gaffer's little rebuke to Ted Sandyman for calling Bilbo and Frodo queer : "If that's being queer, then we could do with a bit more queerness in these parts. There's some not far away that wouldn't offer a pint of beer to a friend, if they lived in a hole with golden walls."

I like the little character insight into Sam - the rumor of wonderful firewords was started "by the knowledgeable Sam".

Don't you wish you could have seen those fireworks!

I, too, like how the hood and cloak from Bilbo's journey were obviously precious to him.

I like how you can see Gandalf's affection for Bilbo in his parting words, spoken softly after Bilbo has left.

I love the description of how some of the guests had to be carted off! "Gardeners came by arrangement and removed in wheel-barrows those that had inadvertently remained behind."

I like the little hints of the great burden Gandalf was carrying, but which he didn't share with the hobbits - how he walks "almost as if he was carrying a great weight" and things like that.

[The Gaffer]

So, what is it with hobbits and genealogy? Is this an aspect of how they are obsessed with everyone knowing their place? Is this part of a reactionary vision of how things were better when people didn't get uppity?

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i think the doubling of the watch was gandalf playing it safe... along with him wanting to find out if sauron was looking for bilbo's ring (i.e. he wanted to be the first to know if people were looking)

if he had the slightest suspicion that sauron knew about the ring he would have sent bilbo or frodo to rivendell on the spot with the ring... certainly a safer place... even in the shire, the ring would not have remained hidden for all the following years if sauron knew where to look

and in fact, once he did have evidence that sauron had suspicions, his first reaction was to have frodo head to rivendell

Just to add to BrownJenkin's comments:

1) Gandalf had promised Bilbo, and probably himself, to keep an eye on Frodo, two when he could spare them. If after the problems Bilbo had giving up the Ring made Gandalf suspicious, and he is going off to research ring lore to discover the truth of the matter, then he needs someone to watch the Shire. Since the Shire has been watched for a long time already because there was a magic ring in it, a dangerous thing among mortals, now that Gandalf suspects that it is a Ring of Power, one of the great rings, he naturally increased the watchufulness. At this point, I have to agree with Valandil, brownjenkins and others, Gandalf may have suspicions about this being the One, but only suspicions, and Sauon and Saruman have no idea yet that the One has been found.

2) It is good to remmeber as we look ahead to chapter 2, though not there yet, that it is almost twenty years between the party and Gandalf's revelation and final test that Frodo's Ring is the One Ring.

Forkbeard

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
So, what is it with hobbits and genealogy? Is this an aspect of how they are obsessed with everyone knowing their place? Is this part of a reactionary vision of how things were better when people didn't get uppity?

You know, I've wondered this myself. I've known serious geneologists and how almost crazed they can get, and I can't imagine a whole society of such.

I've had 2 somewhat competing, somewhat complimentary theories to explain the Hobbits interest in such things, and both of them are of the "source" nature rather than internal to the story.

First theory is that in Germanic literature in general, and Norse sagas and Old ENglish literature specifically, geneologies are important and frequently given. Tolkien who of course loved these literatures and taught them was influenced by them in his depictions of the Hobbits.

Second theory is that the Brits are hyper concerned, and have been for centuries, about the interrelationships of the gentry and royal families.

Any other takers on this question?

Forkbeard

[azalea]

Thanks so much, Cass! (I'm sorry I was late getting here to "stick" it, but I have visitors, and wasn't able to get on yesterday.)

I like your comment about Tolkien's deeper hobbit characters here. We hadn't gotten a taste of that as much in The Hobbit (just a little at the end). This chapter really helps the reader get a good picture of hobbits, esp. the Gaffer. I like this, because knowing him helps us to know Sam better when we meet him. And I, too, love the chapter title's parallel to ch.1 of The Hobbit (gives reader a sense of familiarity).

I think Frodo was probably surprised and honored that Bilbo gave him the Ring. It might have perplexed him, but I don't think he was particularly excited or eager regarding the Ring at this point. He was sad, more wrapped up in losing his beloved guardian and getting things settled back down after the party and bequeathal (is that a word? ).

The humor is excellent -- how can anyone say otherwise? It's like someone is telling me a story of how people were behaving, as in a conversation about an event. The "telling" doesn't bother me one bit, I still find it funny. Plus, it's all in the interest of adding layers, and you can't "show" every layer, some of it must be described. There's no problem there for me. A lot of this getting to know the hobbits makes me wonder, though, if he knew he'd be doing the Scouring at this point in the tale.
Also, I personally see the modernism to be looked upon as the author describing to the modern reader in his own words, not something that Bilbo would have said. He was not just relaying the tale, he was telling it in his own words. At least, that's how I see it. But I also like your idea of it being a comparable phrase to something written by Bilbo that was untranslatable, too.

A few things I jotted down during my read I'd like to bring up:
Their ages -- I love how he was able to align so many things about them -- 111 and 33 (I'll be having my own coming of age in a couple of weeks ), the ages equaling one gross, etc.

I wonder -- did he envision Frodo at Mt. Doom at this point?

The "class" issue is a lot more apparent here than in TH, aside from our being told there that he was from an old and wealthy family. The Gaffer's conversation at The Ivy Bush (aside from being extremely entertaining, as well as a clever device to add some exposition without saying it directly to the reader) is telling -- that Bilbo "learned" Sam his letters (person of the higher class teaching the lower), the Gaffer adding "meaning no harm...and I hope no harm will come of it" (as if learning letters equated to having aspirations beyond what he should -- similar to the comment about dragons versus taters, and the second part demonstrating the hobbit suspicion of the trouble that learning brings -- anything beyond the simple things in life are sure to bring trouble), then the comments about "your betters." I happen to think that aside from being perhaps similar to what Tolkien might have experienced as a youth in England (the class thing being a recognizable part of life), he is setting up not only Shire life, but also the character of Sam, the unlikely hero among unlikely heroes. Virtually powerless, yet crucial to community life (as food-grower, and plant-cultivator -- holding back the wilderness in his own way, a tie between nature and civilization, like an Entwife, in a way), just like those on the low end of the totem in modern society -- we tend to look down on those "below" us, but our lives would be much worse for not having them there. Anyway, so we are being led to see Sam as special, but it is also made clear that he is not apparently hero material. Tolkien may also be poking fun at what it means to be a "better" -- Sam blows away most other hobbits in terms of his heroism and importance in saving the world. So what does it mean to aspire to be like your "betters?" Sam was "better" than most of them, wasn't he? But part of what made him that was was his devotion and commitment to both Frodo (one of his "betters") and to doing what he knows to be right.

I'll have to stop here and continue later. I'm rambling.

BoP -- I hate to supress discussion, but I'd really like for these discussion threads to be based on what is in the text of LotR, and not bring in any HoME. I hope this won't discourage the voicing of opinions, but will encourage us to seek references in the text to support our positions.
Of course, if anyone simply must voice an opinion using HoME, we'd love to have threads started in this forum (outside of the project) about different issues. Please feel free to do that -- part of why we're doing this is to do that! (You can use quotes from anywhere you want in the other threads in this forum, in case any newbies didn't know).

[Linaewen]

Great job, Cass.

Originally posted by Artanis
About Tolkien's humour: I would like to know what's wrong with the description of the farewell presents? It's delightful. I also love the way he is describing the Hobbits, he does it with subtle and discrete humour, and with great affection.

Chapter 1 is one of my favourites for this very reason- I think that Tolkien uses the humour very well, particularly the present labels. His using it adds another aspect to the storytelling (Azalea's 'layers' I guess) - there's both lightheartedness and seriousness, laughter and tears in the novel.

It's interesting to note the transition from Hobbit-style storytelling to LotR style. This chapter seems to be in between, which is probably why I'm so fond of it.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Linaewen
It's interesting to note the transition from Hobbit-style storytelling to LotR style. This chapter seems to be in between, which is probably why I'm so fond of it.

That's probably because it was Bilbo who began to write it. I have sometimes wondered how would have been LOTR if its author was supposed to be Bilbo. Probably very different: more full of fantasy and of his ironical remarks

I have to re-read the thread and chapter, but I think nobody has mention yet the obvious connection between the titles of TH and LOTR's first chapters "An Unexpected Party" and "A Long Expected Party" A perfect title, also because LOTR was "long expected" and also a "party" for those who had read TH

[Rían]

Yes, several of us mentioned it!

[Nurvingiel]

As I somewhere else, probably the foreward thread, I always love how Tolkien writes as if he was honoured to observe the events.

This does give you the impression that Bilbo wrote the first part, Frodo finished it, and Sam wrote the very end and organized Frodo's notes into the appendicies.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Yes, several of us mentioned it!

LOL That's what happens when you miss a thread for a couple of days!

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Forkbeard
You know, I've wondered this myself. I've known serious geneologists and how almost crazed they can get, and I can't imagine a whole society of such.

I've had 2 somewhat competing, somewhat complimentary theories to explain the Hobbits interest in such things, and both of them are of the "source" nature rather than internal to the story.

First theory is that in Germanic literature in general, and Norse sagas and Old ENglish literature specifically, geneologies are important and frequently given. Tolkien who of course loved these literatures and taught them was influenced by them in his depictions of the Hobbits.

Second theory is that the Brits are hyper concerned, and have been for centuries, about the interrelationships of the gentry and royal families.

Any other takers on this question?

Forkbeard

i brings me back to the passage i quoted from the prologue

Hobbits delighted in such things (genealogical trees), if they were accurate: they liked to have books filled with things that they already knew, set out fair and square with no contradictions

i think it might be a combination of the general nature of hobbits, very friendly and social, and their tendency to avoid adventure and confrontation... all in all, to avoid change

their history is sketchy... but one would imagine life before the shire was a rough one for generally good-natured beings like hobbits... in many ways i wonder if, upon reaching the shire, they wanted to "forget the past"

one way to do this, is to just not talk about it... of course, a better way is to focus on the present and develop strong yet new cultural anchors... this is reflected in the new calendar basing everything on the founding of the shire

discussing lineages probably served a few purposes... it reinforced tradition and stability in such a way that the "the shire" became all that was important in their world... it also provided somewhat mundane yet interesting social interaction while allowing them to avoid the more "risky" subjects like current events

in some ways i see it as strongly grasping to tradition... partly due to a fear that without it their peace and well-being might be lost in the process

whether tradition is truely needed or not to maintain social stability is a bigger question then i should get into here, but it is something you often see expressed in the world

i've heard similar theories concerning the british... holding on to their monarchy (though much more limited in power) both as a reaction to the events in the revolution in the 1600s, and as a symbol of stability thoughout the later centuries when many of the countries surrounding it threw out their traditions, and suffered for quite some time, possibly as a result

[cassiopeia]

Thanks everybody! Sorry for not being here for the discussion, but my computer died about an hour after I posted the introduction, so I suppose it's lucky I got it posted in time.

I want to make it clear I really like Tolkien's sense of humour. I had read in a book -- unfortunately I don't have it here -- that the author didn't like Tolkien's humour for the reasons I stated. But I think it's wonderful. I love 'drownded' too.

I *did* know there was more guests than 144, but Bilbo mentions this number in his speech, so that's why I added it. I wonder if Sam and the Gaffer were invited to the party, since in the appendices their names are not underlined. I suspect they were there in some capacity, but perhaps not 'officially'.

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
As I somewhere else, probably the foreward thread, I always love how Tolkien writes as if he was honoured to observe the events.

I love how you expressed that: honoured is the right word. Didn't Tolkien think, when he was writing, that he was finding out what happened, rather than making it up himself?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
I *did* know there was more guests than 144, but...

Cass... sorry if I came on too strongly about this. I seem that way sometimes, but I probably didn't mean it like it seemed. In some ways, I make a point to mention it because for so long I didn't notice. And I DO think you did a great job!

[cassiopeia]

That's cool. I didn't want people to think I didn't know my Tolkien. My copy of the LOTR is falling apart because I thumb through it so often. I probably didn't notice it for a while, either; it's fun to find out something new when you read the LOTR again and again.