Gildor Inglorion

[Curufin]

And yet I can't stand Túrin. More of a Ñoldor person, myself.

But I understand your reasoning!

As for Gildor, I see in him the culmination of everything that has befallen the Ñoldor - he's very reluctant to get involved in anything that is going to cause any more grief, and he really just wants to be left alone and allowed to go into the West. But that said, he does have a bit of good and nobility left within him - the reason he even goes so far as to give the Hobbits advice (when he really doesn't want to take them among them).

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Curufin

Yeah, but he disowned me, so not my problem.

Not a problem for his dad Curufin sitting in Mandos, no. But for other Noldor who deemed themselves noble? Isn't it mean to forge the Rings and then leave the perfectly innocent other Elves and Men to clear up the mess?

He was heading in the general direction of West.So they're soaking up the 'beauty' of Middle-earth a little, and then leaving. Suffice it to say they won't be sticking around long.

Yea, and the hell with ME - his home for 3 Ages. Welcome to the Paradise Island!

Perhaps they wouldn't have attacked them outright. But if they had a clear indication of where the ring was they could surely have acquired trolls and orcs, etc - backup, if you will. I don't think they ever would have reached Rivendell.

This I don't buy at all. Please, have a look at the map and tell me where could the nazgul get enough orcs or Trolls or whatever to deal with a company of High Elves? At such a short notice?

In addition, they wouldn't have met up with Strider, which would have caused a mess of its own.

That is a story-external reason. Gildor's Elves could have led Frodo to Rivendell much better than Strider. And unharmed to boot.

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Not a problem for his dad Curufin sitting in Mandos, no. But for other Noldor who deemed themselves noble? Isn't it mean to forge the Rings and then leave the perfectly innocent other Elves and Men to clear up the mess?

Hey now, the Ñoldor had nothing to do with the forging of the One Ring. Their rings never hurt anyone.

Yea, and the hell with ME - his home for 3 Ages. Welcome to the Paradise Island!

*sings* We gotta get out of this place...if it's the last thing we ever do...
Elves are fading. It's the time for men (and hobbits) to solve their own problems.

This I don't buy at all. Please, have a look at the map and tell me where could the nazgul get enough orcs or Trolls or whatever to deal with a company of High Elves? At such a short notice?

Hey, I didn't say it would be easy. But you do have a point. It would have been difficult to get 'back-up'.

That is a story-external reason. Gildor's Elves could have led Frodo to Rivendell much better than Strider. And unharmed to boot.

Ah, is it story-external, or is it simply part of the Music?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

Yes, at the end of the Third Age the Elves didn't seem to care very much. They would be leaving soon. Of course during the First and Second Ages they gladly goaded Men into helping them out with their wars with Morgoth and Sauron. I would say that seems very selfish, but realistic is probably just as accurate. My problem is when we see people with this attitude as being very noble. Gildor is a good example.

Thumbs up. Very well said, CAB.

Originally Posted by CAB

I could be mistaken, but I thought only Glorfindel, having been resurrected, glowed that way. If all the Noldor shown like torches, then how did they ever manage to sneak around so much during the First Age?

There were no nazgul around (yet) and for ordinary Word of Light persons they had but a barely visible aura as if of moonlight– and that maybe only at night and when they didn’t mind to be seen, or when they chanted hymns..
We are not told if it was only Glorfindel who shined in the Spirit World, or all the High (meaning Calaquendi) Elf Lords, but I think the latter. Firstly, when writing this, Tolkien simply re-utilized a name from the Silm drafts. In LOTR Glorfy is not told to be reincarnated. Tolkien invented this story about re-incarnation only later (when he thought of publishing Silm together with LOTR) and had to decide why the two Elves had the same name.
Then there are quotes that seem to imply that G was not unique:

1. 'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'
'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes.

2. Even if you chose for us an elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road to the Fire by the power that is in him.'

The number must be few, since your hope is in speed and secrecy. Had I a host of Elves in armour of the Elder Days, it would avail little, save to arouse the power of Mordor.

Originally Posted by Curufin

I'm not claiming it's a 'noble' attitude, or that by not helping the hobbits Gildor is in any way 'noble.' I just understand, and don't blame him for it.

One can hardly understand it when reading LOTR for the first time. That’s why I have found him disgusting. The readers are invited to look at Gildor through the eyes of naïve hobbits, Frodo and esp. Sam, besotted with Elves, but it didn’t work for me at all. All that glitter is not gold.

Originally Posted by Curufin

I'm not saying they necessarily would have gotten in the way, but they certainly would have decreased the 'secrecy' element.

Secrecy was necessary when the bearers of the Ring were heavily outnumbered :in Mordor. In the Shire it were the nazgul who were on enemy territory and used secrecy. Aragorn and three hobbits couldn’t hope to fight the Nine : hence their stealth. The stronger one needs no secrecy: and the High Elves were stronger than the nazgul, otherwise Khamul wouldn’t have retreated when the Elves “SUNG at him”.

Originally Posted by Curufin

Why should Gildor and co. care about Hobbits, or the Ring, anyway?

He was a Noldo, with a huge burden of responsibility for the Rings. Moreover, Gildor is sold as a noble character. Didn’t yourself say : “He's just...the epitome of what an Elf should be”?
I can’t see any commendable qualities in him at all. Seeming fair and acting foul.

Originally Posted by Curufin

*sings* We gotta get out of this place...if it's the last thing we ever do...
Elves are fading. It's the time for men (and hobbits) to solve their own problems.

To solve the problems you made for us. Noble Noldor left only when they could leave Men a clear board, after the ring was destroyed.

Originally Posted by Curufin

Hey now, the Ñoldor had nothing to do with the forging of the One Ring. Their rings never hurt anyone.

No??? Look at my empty hood! My fair face remains invisible, the other sex doesn’t find me attractive, I am cold on the other side, I miss coffee and chocolate, and I am a minion of an evil dude. No harm?

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Thumbs up. Very well said, CAB.
We are not told if it was only Glorfindel who shined in the Spirit World, or all the High (meaning Calaquendi) Elf Lords, but I think the latter.

I remember reading somewhere that it was all Caliquendi elves. I can't remember where. I'll look for it.

One can hardly understand it when reading LOTR for the first time. That’s why I have found him disgusting. The readers are invited to look at Gildor through the eyes of naïve hobbits, Frodo and esp. Sam, besotted with Elves, but it didn’t work for me at all. All that glitter is not gold.

I liked Gildor when I read LotR for the first time, before I'd ever even heard of The Silmarillion and just wanted to know what was going to happen in the next movie. To each their own, I suppose.

Secrecy was necessary when the bearers of the Ring were heavily outnumbered :in Mordor. In the Shire it were the nazgul who were on enemy territory and used secrecy. Aragorn and three hobbits couldn’t hope to fight the Nine : hence their stealth. The stronger one needs no secrecy: and the High Elves were stronger than the nazgul, otherwise Khamul wouldn’t have retreated when the Elves “SUNG at him”.

Alright, the truth: Gildor didn't want to put himself and his friends in danger again. He gave them advice and sent a message to Elrond. That was something. Remember, also, that he didn't know they had the Ring for sure.

He was a Noldo, with a huge burden of responsibility for the Rings. Moreover, Gildor is sold as a noble character. Didn’t yourself say : “He's just...the epitome of what an Elf should be”?
I can’t see any commendable qualities in him at all. Seeming fair and acting foul.

We're also seeing him at the end of his life in Middle-earth. Who knows what he did earlier (although I doubt it was much, since he's of the house of Finarfin...). I don't think he's sold as 'noble' - just Elvish. I never got the feeling he was supposed to be some big, powerful elf-lord who should have helped and didn't. I got the feeling that he was an Elf they happened to come across, who was done with Middle-earth and really didn't want anything to do with them, but gave them a bit of help, nonetheless, and sent them on their way. I think it was a good illustration of Tolkien's theme that while men were waxing, elves were waning. Glorfindel is not Gildor. Glorfindel was sent back to fight. We don't see Elrond going with Frodo, do we? Or any of the elves of Rivendell or Lórien. Do we judge them differently? Why?

To solve the problems you made for us. Noble Noldor left only when they could leave Men a clear board, after the ring was destroyed.

Men would have all been enslaved by Melkor if not for the Ñoldor. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

No??? Look at my empty hood! My fair face remains invisible, the other sex doesn’t find me attractive, I am cold on the other side, I miss coffee and chocolate, and I am a minion of an evil dude. No harm?

Maybe I should have said that they never hurt anyone who didn't deserve it.

[Gordis]

Glorfindel is not Gildor. Glorfindel was sent back to fight. We don't see Elrond going with Frodo, do we? Or any of the elves of Rivendell or Lórien. Do we judge them differently? Why?

Elrond couldn’t go, he had to stay home with his Vilya to protect Rivendell and maintain its magic barriers. Yet he did send both his sons to war. And he did insist on appointing two Rivendell Elves to the Fellowship, but was overruled by Gandalf. Rivendell is OK.
Lorien? Never liked the White Witch, but I think there was no point to add a member to the Fellowship at this point. Hobbits had to go to Mordor alone, I am sure that was the Wise’s plan all along. Why would the selfish Galadriel send Lorien Elves to battle to Minas Tirith?

Men would have all been enslaved by Melkor if not for the Ñoldor. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Melkor was the first to pay attention to the Secondborn. He had no feuds with them – before the Elves have enlisted the Edain to their side.

Maybe I should have said that they never hurt anyone who didn't deserve it.

How could the future nazgul deserve their fate if the Elves never warned them about the Rings and the real reason of their war with Sauron, won only by the Numenorean intervention?

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

There were no nazgul around (yet) and for ordinary Word of Light persons they had but a barely visible aura as if of moonlight– and that maybe only at night and when they didn’t mind to be seen, or when they chanted hymns..
We are not told if it was only Glorfindel who shined in the Spirit World, or all the High (meaning Calaquendi) Elf Lords, but I think the latter.

I still see this as being a problem. Surely there were other evil beings that could see the Spirit World, especially in the First Age. The best example I can think of is Sauron in Finrod's tower. How could Finrod, Beren, and Co. possibly have thought they could sneak by if Finrod (and probably some of his companions) were glowing like torches?

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Elrond couldn’t go, he had to stay home with his Vilya to protect Rivendell and maintain its magic barriers. Yet he did send both his sons to war. And he did insist on appointing two Rivendell Elves to the Fellowship, but was overruled by Gandalf. Rivendell is OK.
Lorien? Never liked the White Witch, but I think there was no point to add a member to the Fellowship at this point. Hobbits had to go to Mordor alone, I am sure that was the Wise’s plan all along. Why would the selfish Galadriel send Lorien Elves to battle to Minas Tirith?

You really have a bone to pick with the Ñoldor, don't you? My point is that both Galadriel and Elrond had more to gain/lose from the success of the Hobbits' quest than Gildor and co. Why judge Gildor so harshly when he doesn't have a foot in this game?

Melkor was the first to pay attention to the Secondborn. He had no feuds with them – before the Elves have enlisted the Edain to their side.

No feuds with them. Are you actually saying that Melkor would have helped them out and forgotten his evil ways if the Elves hadn't come in at just the wrong time? Sorry, don't buy it. Read The Tale of Adanel again, buster.

How could the future nazgul deserve their fate if the Elves never warned them about the Rings and the real reason of their war with Sauron, won only by the Numenorean intervention?

Ah, I see. So it's the fault of the elves that the kings were greedy. I see. Are other Nazgúl this unwilling to take responsibility for their actions?

Originally Posted by CAB

I still see this as being a problem. Surely there were other evil beings that could see the Spirit World, especially in the First Age. The best example I can think of is Sauron in Finrod's tower. How could Finrod, Beren, and Co. possibly have thought they could sneak by if Finrod (and probably some of his companions) were glowing like torches?

Beren wouldn't have had a problem. Finrod - don't know. I do know that he used a Song of Power to disguse them as they went, maybe that helped.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by CAB

I also don't see the hobbits secrecy being hurt by the Elves' presence either, at least if they could stop singing for a while.

I daresay Elves were easier to find for the nazgul then Hobbits. And Hobbits are known for their stealth.

Gildor didn't know that Frodo had the Ring, only an unnamed "great burden".

Knowing Gildor, he may just have been cryptic? If he knew the black riders were nazgul and were hunting Frodo, I'm sure he put two and two together.

They just barely made it to Buckland and had to be rescued by Bombadil twice while alone vs seeing a Nazgul run away when the Elves came near.

But they wouldn't have needed Elves to save them from the nazgul, which was the original point, wasn't it? That the Elves should have escorted the Hobbits to keep the nazgul away?

I think (if I recall correctly) the nazgul pretty much lost track of the Hobbits, only found them again shortly at the ferry and then lost them again when they entered the Old Forest, but I daresay they would not have done so if they were tracking a bunch of Noldor as well as Hobbits. Also, Frodo was still holding up pretense of retiring to Crickhollow, that wouldn't have worked out grandly with a dozen of Elves going along.

Originally Posted by Gordis

This doen't match Gildor's words and actions. Those who spend their time gazing West into the palantir and singing hymns to Elbereth are hardly ambitious. They are half-gone already in minds, maybe fading in bodies.

Depends on interpretation, I think. Even the sons of Fëanor didn't always go "Rwar, oath, killkill. Silmaril, mine!" Their ambition might still have been rekindled, if they stayed near the Ring long enough for it.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Sure the nazgul would be aware of the group of High Elves heading to Rivendell. Maybe they would understant that they carried the Ring. So what? Could they attack them? - hardly. They were only Nine, without any orcs or trolls at their disposal. They have repeatedly retreated seeing the lone Glorfindel. And don't forget how the nazgul hated gymns to Elbereth.

You never know. They might have found enough evil creatures around to use. And the nazgul hate fire too, but that didn't stop them from attacking the Hobbits on Weathertop, nor from attacking Gandalf the wizard there a few days before. It's not because they choose at some points to pull back that they were incapable of offenses. They just needed to be with enough, and maybe have their captain along for the ride. They might definitely have stepped up hostilities if Gildor sent Elves along with the Hobbits.

To say the Elves would have been enough kept the nazgul at bay and get the Hobbits into Rivendell without a scratch is IMO to greatly underestimate the Nine. (Really, Gordis, I'm surprised at you. )

And it's not as if Gildor did absolutely nothing. Okay, his advice was not the most practical. But he did take the Hobbits along for a bit, effectively obscuring the traces for the nazgul, and making it harder for the black riders to pick up their trail again. Gildor gave the Hobbits food and a safe place to sleep. It may not have been much, but it must have bought the Hobbits some time. Gildor may have thought it time enough.

Originally Posted by CAB

This is a poor excuse not to help. If I see a lost, crying child on the side of the road, should I walk by and say "Sorry, but I'm no good with kids"?

I don't know about you, but if I came across three grown-ups that were not only going the other way than me but were followed by something nasty that may be frightened by me for a short while, but could still be very dangerous, I wouldn't be volunteering to join them either. It is not my opinion that these were Gildor's reasons for not going along, but I do think the comparison of lost and helpless children is slanted. It makes every decision NOT to go along look like the cowardly an wrong one, which I think is not entirely applicable on this situation.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I daresay Elves were easier to find for the nazgul then Hobbits. And Hobbits are known for their stealth.

Elves too are known for their stealth. In the very chapter where Frodo meets Gildor it is said that Elves can walk more quietly than Hobbits. Also, returning to the torch-like qualities of the Noldor, isn't it odd that the Nazgul tracking Frodo only noticed Gildor and friends' approach just as the hobbits did...when they started singing (not glowing).

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Knowing Gildor, he may just have been cryptic? If he knew the black riders were nazgul and were hunting Frodo, I'm sure he put two and two together.

The message concerning the "great burden" was given to the people of Rivendell, not Frodo. Why be cryptic with them?

Originally Posted by Eärniel

But they wouldn't have needed Elves to save them from the nazgul, which was the original point, wasn't it? That the Elves should have escorted the Hobbits to keep the nazgul away?
I think (if I recall correctly) the nazgul pretty much lost track of the Hobbits, only found them again shortly at the ferry and then lost them again when they entered the Old Forest, but I daresay they would not have done so if they were tracking a bunch of Noldor as well as Hobbits. Also, Frodo was still holding up pretense of retiring to Crickhollow, that wouldn't have worked out grandly with a dozen of Elves going along.

The Nazgul probably would never have got the chance to catch the hobbits, considering how poorly the hobbits were doing on their own. Some other evil being would have beat them to it. Gordis pointed out earlier that only luck had saved Frodo from the Nazgul before they got to Bree. As for Frodo going to Crickhollow, that plan probably should have been abandoned once the hobbits realized they were being pursued before they ever left the Shire. Of course things did work out. Frodo was a very lucky guy.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Depends on interpretation, I think. Even the sons of Fëanor didn't always go "Rwar, oath, killkill. Silmaril, mine!" Their ambition might still have been rekindled, if they stayed near the Ring long enough for it.

This is possible, if Gildor knew that Frodo had the Ring (not at all a certainty). Also, as Curufin has pointed out, these Elves were of the house of Finarfin, and so were probably less likely to be pulled by the Ring.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I don't know about you, but if I came across three grown-ups that were not only going the other way than me but were followed by something nasty that may be frightened by me for a short while, but could still be very dangerous, I wouldn't be volunteering to join them either. It is not my opinion that these were Gildor's reasons for not going along, but I do think the comparison of lost and helpless children is slanted. It makes every decision NOT to go along look like the cowardly an wrong one, which I think is not entirely applicable on this situation.

Compared to a dozen or so Noldorian Elves, I can very easily see the hobbits as lost children. They don't know how to get to their destination, or what lies between, they don't know what is following them, and they would be no match for their pursuers if they met. None of this is true for Gildor's Elves. The reason his decision looked wrong is because it was wrong. Whether or not it was cowardly I think is questionable.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

I still see this as being a problem. Surely there were other evil beings that could see the Spirit World, especially in the First Age. The best example I can think of is Sauron in Finrod's tower. How could Finrod, Beren, and Co. possibly have thought they could sneak by if Finrod (and probably some of his companions) were glowing like torches?
Elves too are known for their stealth. In the very chapter where Frodo meets Gildor it is said that Elves can walk more quietly than Hobbits. Also, returning to the torch-like qualities of the Noldor, isn't it odd that the Nazgul tracking Frodo only noticed Gildor and friends' approach just as the hobbits did...when they started singing (not glowing).

Yes, there is something in it. Perhaps the Calaquendi only glow when in battle-mode?

The moment the flood appeared, [Glorfindel] rushed out, followed by Aragorn and the others with flaming brands. Caught between fire and water, and seeing an Elf-lord revealed in his wrath, they were dismayed, and their horses were stricken with madness.

But they didn’t even pause to look at Glorfy when they followed Frodo on Asfaloth. Perhaps he didn’t glow much then?
The fading Frodo when he was travelling with Glorfindel only noted that “a white light was shining through the form and raiment of the rider, as if through a thin veil”. But later at the Ford he saw “a shining figure of white light”.

Maybe Finrod and Co could mask their glow entirely?

Originally Posted by Curufin

My point is that both Galadriel and Elrond had more to gain/lose from the success of the Hobbits' quest than Gildor and co. Why judge Gildor so harshly when he doesn't have a foot in this game?

Sure – as the Ring returning to Sauron meant the total disaster for the bearers of the Three. As for Gildor, he was not personally interested – a nice occasion for him to show his "quality". Well… he did.

Originally Posted by Curufin

No feuds with them. Are you actually saying that Melkor would have helped them out and forgotten his evil ways if the Elves hadn't come in at just the wrong time? Sorry, don't buy it. Read The Tale of Adanel again, buster.

No time for it now… However, Morgoth needed people to rule, didn’t he? Sauron surely was benevolent to Men serving him – look at the Mouth. And look how Haradrim and Southrons died for him like heroes. Sauron was an equal opportunity employer – the only one in ME.

Originally Posted by Curufin

Ah, I see. So it's the fault of the elves that the kings were greedy. I see. Are other Nazgúl this unwilling to take responsibility for their actions?

Who said that the Kings were greedy? PJ’s scriptwriter, not Tolkien.
No one would throw an Elven ring in a gutter – especially if they had no idea of the ring’s origins and the real price they would have to pay. Greed has nothing to do with it.

Originally Posted by Earniel

To say the Elves would have been enough kept the nazgul at bay and get the Hobbits into Rivendell without a scratch is IMO to greatly underestimate the Nine. (Really, Gordis, I'm surprised at you. )

To answer this question one has to know the number and powers of Gildor’s elves. I have got an impression that they were about a dozen. Am I wrong? If so, maybe all the Nine assembled could attack them, indeed.
Now, let us write a fanfic plot, taking into account the data from the Hunt for the Ring.
Gildor takes the hobbits under his wing for the night. Khamul and his Dol Guldur buddy wait hiding nearby (as they actually did). In the morning the Elves depart east towards the Ferry. The nazgul search around, go to Maggot etc. and only by the afternoon (at the earliest) they discover that the Elves have taken the hobbits with them. Khamul and his buddy watch impotently how the Elves ferry the hobbits across. For two lesser nazgul it would be suicidal to attack the company of High Elves. In the night, the 4 nazgul (now 2+ the one by the bridge + the one on the main road) cross Baranduin by the bridge and likely ride to fetch the Witch-King (+2 others) who were half a day’s ride south from Bree - at Andrath. By the time they find him somewhere in the Barrows the hobbits and Elves would reach Bree and pick up Aragorn. So, if the hobbits are finally attacked, the situation would be much better for them than on Weathertop , because there would be a dozen High Elves in addition.
Note on the track Bree-Rivendell it was not stealth that had saved the hobbits, for the nazgul did find them, but Frodo’s Barrow-blade, Aragorn torches and the name of Elbereth. The latter was especially ominous because it indicated Frodo’s association with the High Elves (RC). Wouldn’t the presence of High Elves in person be more efficient still?

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Yes, there is something in it. Perhaps the Calaquendi only glow when in battle-mode?
But they didn’t even pause to look at Glorfy when they followed Frodo on Asfaloth. Perhaps he didn’t glow much then?
The fading Frodo when he was travelling with Glorfindel only noted that “a white light was shining through the form and raiment of the rider, as if through a thin veil”. But later at the Ford he saw “a shining figure of white light”.

Maybe Finrod and Co could mask their glow entirely?

Darn it, I can't find that quote anywhere (that talks about glowing Calaquendi elves. I'll keep looking).

Sure – as the Ring returning to Sauron meant the total disaster for the bearers of the Three. As for Gildor, he was not personally interested – a nice occasion for him to show his "quality". Well… he did.

I think you're asking too much of Gildor here. It's not like he does anything wrong. He gives them good advice, takes them in for the evening, gives them food, and sends a messenger to Elrond. And the hobbits never ask for their help either, now do they? And Gildor doesn't know what he's up to, either, or why he's running. He certainly has guesses, but he doesn' t know for sure. I think he does what he can, in the circumstances. It's not like Frodo comes up to him and says 'Hey, Gildor, you know, you're a Calaquendi Ñoldo, and you could really help us out, since we're trying to take this Ring of Power out of the Shire and the Nazgúl are after us.' No, Frodo tells them that they're trying to get out of the Shire in secret. Now how is Torch-boy going to help with that?

No time for it now… However, Morgoth needed people to rule, didn’t he? Sauron surely was benevolent to Men serving him – look at the Mouth. And look how Haradrim and Southrons died for him like heroes. Sauron was an equal opportunity employer – the only one in ME.

Wow. You really have passed over to the darkside. Morgoth didn't just rule the poeople, he was a tyrant, as was Sauron.

Who said that the Kings were greedy? PJ’s scriptwriter, not Tolkien.
No one would throw an Elven ring in a gutter – especially if they had no idea of the ring’s origins and the real price they would have to pay. Greed has nothing to do with it.

It's been a while since I've read LotR, if I'm conflating it with the movie, I'm going to have to contemplate suicide. Despite that, you can't tell me that the Nazgúl were perfectly nice and good and noble before the Elves came around and gave them rings to wear. They would have noticed pretty quickly that something was a bit...odd...about those rings.

[Jon S.]

FWIW, Gordis's arguments regarding Gildor are beginning to persuade me. Based on what we can know of the situation, what the protaganists actually said, who likely knew what, and how regular folks (yes, I'm projecting here!) would likely act were an analogous situation to arise in our lives, while it was cool that Gildor helped as much as he did, seems to me it was a huge risk bordering on if not equaling recklessness to not have done more under the circumstances.

If it had been me meeting up with the hobbits in the woods, knowing what Gildor knew, I'd like to think I would have asked a few more questions and offered a bit more aid.

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

FWIW, Gordis's arguments regarding Gildor are beginning to persuade me. Based on what we can know of the situation, what the protaganists actually said, who likely knew what, and how regular folks (yes, I'm projecting here!) would likely act were an analogous situation to arise in our lives, while it was cool that Gildor helped as much as he did, seems to me it was a huge risk bordering on if not equaling recklessness to not have done more under the circumstances.

Gildor didn't know his circumstances. And Gildor wasn't 'regular folk.' He was a fading remnant of a waning people who saw very little connection left to Middle-earth, and had absolutely no interest in hobbits. Look at it this way:if you were walking around the forest towards an important destination (even if you could take your time to get there), and you saw several ants scampering in the other direction, followed by several bees, would you go out of your way to go rescue those ants when it means you could get stung? Or, another example, if you were in the forest and saw several deer running in one direction, followed by several wolves, would you go out of your way to save the deer, when it meant you could get eaten? I really doubt it. And that's how Gildor saw the Hobbits. It wasn't his place to interfere, nor was it something he really cared about. He helped them out as he could, and then moved on. To turn the question around, what on earth was in it for him to join in the quest?

If it had been me meeting up with the hobbits in the woods, knowing what Gildor knew, I'd like to think I would have asked a few more questions and offered a bit more aid.

And what did Gildor know that was so important? There were some hobbits being followed by Nazgúl. Something important, to them at least. But not so much to Elves who were planning to leave soon (in Elvish terms, anyway).

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

If the third age Noldor viewed Men on par with ants and deer, they had fallen much farther than even I thought.

[Curufin]

The point is that this wasn't Gildor's fight, and he didn't see himself as involved in the struggles of men (or hobbits).

[Earniel]

I think this discussion is a lot on par with the one whether Elrond and Cirdan should have taken the Ring from Isildur on Mount Doom. I remember nearly every mooter said in a previous discussion they would have taken the ring from him. Sorry, but I don't believe that. But hindsight is 20/20. We know what happened to the Hobbits after they left Gildor, we judge Gildor accordingly. Gildor did NOT know what was going to happen, and he acted accordingly to what he did know or guessed. I think, given the situation as it was known then, pretty much none of us would have accompanied Frodo either.

Originally Posted by CAB

Elves too are known for their stealth. In the very chapter where Frodo meets Gildor it is said that Elves can walk more quietly than Hobbits. Also, returning to the torch-like qualities of the Noldor, isn't it odd that the Nazgul tracking Frodo only noticed Gildor and friends' approach just as the hobbits did...when they started singing (not glowing).

Considering the story is never told from the Nazgul point of view, it is difficult to establish for real how they saw the Elves at specific moments. The nazgul tracking Frodo may have been aware of the Elves, but may have been too consumed with sniffing to pay closer attention. Also, sight in the wraith world is a bit confusing, according to Frodo's and Sam's accounts of it. Distances are warped. The nazgul may have been aware of the Elves' presense, but not immediately of their proximity, he may have hoped to go about his business before the Elves arrived.

Although since the nazgul have been in the wraith world for so long, they should have adjusted to the warp better than the hobbits who only popped in an out on occasion. So that probably isn't a workable argument. So I'm more convinced of the nazgul being to focussed on the ringbearer to give much notice to the Elves (glowing or not) presence until he had to.

The message concerning the "great burden" was given to the people of Rivendell, not Frodo. Why be cryptic with them?

Fear of eavesdroppers? The Ring is not a topic that should be discussed carelessly in these times.

Of course things did work out. Frodo was a very lucky guy.

Um, so? I'm not sure how this is an argument. Some characters are lucky, some aren't, a lot of things turned out to be very lucky in LoTR in the end. It's what the story requires.

The reason his decision looked wrong is because it was wrong.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I fear.

Originally Posted by Gordis

No time for it now… However, Morgoth needed people to rule, didn’t he? Sauron surely was benevolent to Men serving him – look at the Mouth. And look how Haradrim and Southrons died for him like heroes. Sauron was an equal opportunity employer – the only one in ME.

I think a lot will disagree with that. Snaga for example, if I'm not mistaken. People under Sauron got to the top by viciously kicking on the ones below them. The Southrons and the Haradrim fought for their own honour to the death, not Sauron IMO.

To answer this question one has to know the number and powers of Gildor’s elves. I have got an impression that they were about a dozen. Am I wrong? If so, maybe all the Nine assembled could attack them, indeed. Now, let us write a fanfic plot, taking into account the data from the Hunt for the Ring.

It might have gone like that, and it might not have gone like that. The possibilities on this point are pretty much endless. But think also of this: if the Elves had been present, no Hobbit would have ended up with a Barrow sword. They'd have avoided the Barrow Downs or had travelled over it during the safe day.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

If the third age Noldor viewed Men on par with ants and deer, they had fallen much farther than even I thought.

I second that. Really Curufin, your last arguments present Gildor even in a worse light than I have implied.

Originally Posted by Curufin

And what did Gildor know that was so important? There were some hobbits being followed by Nazgúl. Something important, to them at least. But not so much to Elves who were planning to leave soon (in Elvish terms, anyway).

And the hobbits never ask for their help either, now do they? And Gildor doesn't know what he's up to, either, or why he's running. He certainly has guesses, but he doesn' t know for sure. I think he does what he can, in the circumstances. It's not like Frodo comes up to him and says 'Hey, Gildor, you know, you're a Calaquendi Ñoldo, and you could really help us out, since we're trying to take this Ring of Power out of the Shire and the Nazgúl are after us.' No, Frodo tells them that they're trying to get out of the Shire in secret. Now how is Torch-boy going to help with that?

Look, Curufin, some hobbits being hunted by nazgul is not an everyday occasion - NOT like deer being followed by wolves. They are not in the same food-chain, so to speak. It is like having wolves hunting bugs -an occasion worth investigating. And Gildor did figure it out - all on his own:

‘I do not know for what reason the Enemy is pursuing you,’ answered Gildor; ‘but I perceive that he is - strange indeed though that seems to me. And I warn you that peril is now both before you and behind you, and upon either side.’

We know he had guessed about the "heavy burden" that the hobbits were carrying. Maybe he didn't know WHAT it was - but he never asked. It is as simple as that - he could simply ASK Frodo and get the answer. But he was afraid to ask, afraid to be committed, though he understood the hobbit's peril much better than the hobbits themselves did. It was much more natural for Gildor to offer help than for Frodo to ask for it. The hobbits had NO idea what the Nazgul were. They did not know there were NINE of them, not 1-2. They had no idea of the powers of Calaquendi Noldor. They had no idea about the road to Rivendell. They didn't know Strider waited for them in Bree. They were entirely in the dark. Gildor knew much more and could have learned everything if he but asked.

Frodo told Gildor they had to get out of the Shire - but would that save them? How could Gildor know that Aragorn was waiting for the hobbits in Bree? I think you all agree that, but for Aragorn, the hobbits would have hardly gotten beyond the Forsaken Inn.

I don't believe Gildor didn't have a suspision about the nature of this "burden". He did guess - that's why he didn't ask for more info. Because otherwise, he would have to face it: he was sending the Ruling Ring straight to Sauron's hand, dooming his kingswoman Galadriel (of the house of Finarfin) AND her son-in law Elrond AND her only grandchildren AND the realms of Lorien and Rivendell AND also, (as far as he likely supposed) Cirdan and the Havens - summarily all the Elvish realms in Middle Earth.
If the Ring were taken by Nazgul in late September, the Elves of Lorien and Rivendell likely wouldn't even have time to flee to Valinor, except Gildor himself - who was so close to the Havens.

Originally Posted by Earniel

I think this discussion is a lot on par with the one whether Elrond and Cirdan should have taken the Ring from Isildur on Mount Doom. I remember nearly every mooter said in a previous discussion they would have taken the ring from him. Sorry, but I don't believe that. But hindsight is 20/20.

I never thought it were even possible for Elrond and Cirdan to take the Ring from Isildur without killing him. And killing him would have led to war between Elves and Men. Much more likely is to suppose thast they used another occasion to get rid of Isildur and to put all the blame on the orcs.

Originally Posted by Earniel

We know what happened to the Hobbits after they left Gildor, we judge Gildor accordingly. Gildor did NOT know what was going to happen, and he acted accordingly to what he did know or guessed. I think, given the situation as it was known then, pretty much none of us would have accompanied Frodo either.

He did have some foresight - or was it an educated guess? :

‘Is it not enough to know that they are servants of the Enemy?’ answered Gildor. ‘Flee them! Speak no words to them! They are deadly. Ask no more of me! But my heart forbodes that, ere all is ended, you, Frodo son of Drogo, will know more of these fell things than Gildor Inglorion. May Elbereth protect you!’

Originally Posted by Earniel

I think a lot will disagree with [Sauron being an equal opportunity employer]. Snaga for example, if I'm not mistaken. People under Sauron got to the top by viciously kicking on the ones below them.

Most will disagree, sure, brainwashed as they are by Elvish and Tark propaganda.
Snaga was not at the top of orkish social scale - but still he had his place in Mordor. Could an orc serve Gondor or Rohan if he so wished? - No, he would have been hunted down like an animal. In Mordor an orc, an Easterling and even a Numenorean could have got a nice place, if he earned it.

Originally Posted by Earniel

The Southrons and the Haradrim fought for their own honour to the death, not Sauron IMO.

And why they were honor-bound to fight to death for the loosing side? Because of the oaths they have sworn to Sauron, I think. The Easterlings and the Haradrim hated Gondor - and for good reasons, see the Appendices. Under Sauron they were much better off. He was a competent ruler, if a bit on the tyrannical side , giving them equal rights and introducing new technologies.

Originally Posted by Curufin

you can't tell me that the Nazgúl were perfectly nice and good and noble before the Elves came around and gave them rings to wear. They would have noticed pretty quickly that something was a bit...odd...about those rings.

We don't know how exactly the nazgul got their rings - not from Elves, but from (likely disguised) Sauron. There were 1001 possible ways and pretexts to slip a ring to an unsuspecting Man. And when they understood that something was amiss, it was far too late. The Elves themselves didn't dare to wear their Rings even for an hour while Sauron wielded the One (see Silm). And yea, I think most of them (if not all) used to be perfectly well-meaning and noble - that's why Sauron had to use the Rings on them, not hoping to sway them otherwise. See the quote below, which, when written in the draft in HOME 6, likely referred to the Witch-King:

Gandalf: ‘A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him.’

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Gildor: "Is it not enough to know that they are servants of the Enemy?’ answered Gildor. ‘Flee them! Speak no words to them! They are deadly. Ask no more of me! But my heart forbodes that, ere all is ended, you, Frodo son of Drogo, will know more of these fell things than Gildor Inglorion. May Elbereth protect you! Because I sure won't!"

Even the Hobbits themselves seemed enamored with Elves. They dropped the last sentence from most copies of the Red Book.

Seriously, though, wonderful arguments on both sides here. While Tolkien surely didn't intend Gildor or any of the isolationist Elves to come across negatively, Gordis makes excellent and logical points that are difficult to deny.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Most will disagree, sure, brainwashed as they are by Elvish and Tark propaganda. [...] Under Sauron they were much better off. He was a competent ruler, if a bit on the tyrannical side , giving them equal rights and introducing new technologies.

Oh yes, equal rights... everybody a slave! You really are a nazgul, Gordis. I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion at least once before so I'm not going to go into this again.