The Silmarillion ch.5: Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie

[azalea]

Originally posted by Artanis
hadn't noticed that detail before. Does it mean that there were in fact 3 languages? Quenya as spoken by the Noldor and the Vanyar, a variety of Quenya spoken by the Teleri in Aman, and Sindarin as spoken by the Teleri back in Beleriand?

I wasn't clear about that, either. Perhaps it means either that they had a dialectical difference rather than an entirely separate language, or it was just that they continued to speak Sindarin rather than to speak Quenya.

I like the point that FM brought up about the different elves and their proximities to the Valar seeming to equate to their "blessedness." It is rather complex. I think someone said somewhere that maybe the elves became nobler because of their relationship w/ the Valar. Rather than the traits being inherent, they were aquired/ developed over the long years of interaction w/ the Valar (you take on the traits of the company you keep). The Moriquendi, therefore, would have unfortunately missed out on this. Perhaps that is why Elwe changed so, because of all the Eldar, his relationship with Melian would naturally have been of a deeper nature than "leige," if you will, and so the bestowing of grace (or whatever) would have been greater and quicker. (Or his glow was because she was a heck of a lover ).

Anyway, that theme also brings me back to the "mythology" idea: divine intervention being the explanation for the diaspora of the elves, as it were; the reason for the different elves in different places all over ME, with different customs and loyalties, and different fates.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
Tolkien would have loved you RÃ*an Are you reading the Shibboleth?

Yeth

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Yeth

Yeth? Have you caught a cold?

Originally posted by azalea
I think someone said somewhere that maybe the elves became nobler because of their relationship w/ the Valar. Rather than the traits being inherent, they were aquired/ developed over the long years of interaction w/ the Valar (you take on the traits of the company you keep). The Moriquendi, therefore, would have unfortunately missed out on this.

Yes, I also think they became 'nobler'. But 'nobler' doesn't have to mean 'more worthy'. And I would like to know more about the nature of the development of the Elves in Aman. What was the source of this enhanced nobility? Was it just their interaction with the Valar, or was it something more subtle, like the proximity to the Light of the Trees, as Fat Middle said?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
Yeth? Have you caught a cold?

Well, you were asking about the Shibboleth of Fëanor, so I answered 'yes' but typed it how Fëanor would have pronounced it, to the best of my understanding. And that made me look up a few things, which I'll share, and if I'm wrong, someone else who knows better please correct me

At first, I thought the word "shibboleth" meant the 'th' sound instead of the "s" sound, like the Castillian Spaniards pronounce "s", IIRC. THen I looked up the word and found it was actually from a story in the Bible, which I had read but forgotten. It basically means a test or password, but based on how certain people pronounce a word. Here's part of the def:

1. Bible the test word used by the men of Gilead to distinguish the escaping Ephraimites, who pronounced the initial (sh) as (s): Judges 12:4-6;
(2) any test word or password
(3) any phrase, practice, custom, etc. that is distinctive of a particular party, class, faction, etc.

(actually, a pretty funny story, reminds me of the Monty Python guy guarding the bridge - guard - "say "shibboleth!" man - "sibboleth! Oh rats!! aaiiiieeeee!" *falls off cliff*)

Anyway - so the p-looking symbol with the long upper stem (which I can't type) is called a 'thorn', and here is part of that def:

(4) in Old English and Old Norse, the runic character (p) [but with a long stem], corresponding to either the voiced or unvoiced sound of English th: so called because it was the first letter of the word thorn

So Fëanor wanted to keep the pronounciation of his mother's side, which was the thorn sound, while the majority of the other Noldor switched to the 's' sound, so the 'th' sound became a shibboleth to tell which side people were on, to a certain extent (other groups also kept the thorn sound for other reasons). Interesting, isn't it! (at least to me )

[azalea]

Originally posted by Artanis
... 'nobler' doesn't have to mean 'more worthy'.

I agree with you. Which brings us back to the question of why the children of the Avari didn't get the choice to go to Aman (or did they and we just aren't told about it?) Perhaps it is just that Eru meant for the Firstborn to all fade eventually, and it is just through happenstance that the Eldar escaped that fate due to the intervention of the Valar (and just think, they owe it all to Melkor! ). IOW, there is no preferential treatment intended, it's just the way it happens to work out. ARE the Vanya treated as the more worthy? I didn't get that impression, although I did get the impression that they were the "higher" elves, but again, maybe it's just that they got that way from the proximity. (Regarding is it the Valar or the Trees, I tend to think it's the Valar, but I'm sure the Trees bestowed some benefits as well.)

I still get confused, though, because of the halls of Mandos. If an elf gets killed, he or she goes there, and aside from the exception, goes to Aman forever after being rejuvinated. But when an elf fades, he or she does not go there, but simply ceases to exist for all we know. Now, do the Avari go to the halls of Mandos when THEY are killed? I would assume not.

edited due to dumb mistake in elf-kind names...see post further down.

[Maedhros]

So Fëanor wanted to keep the pronounciation of his mother's side, which was the thorn sound, while the majority of the other Noldor switched to the 's' sound, so the 'th' sound became a shibboleth to tell which side people were on, to a certain extent (other groups also kept the thorn sound for other reasons). Interesting, isn't it! (at least to me )

Fëanor being THE LOREMASTER of the Ñoldor certainly had other reasons for wanting to keep the Þ.
From theShibboleth of Fëanor

The change was a general one, based primarily on phonetic 'taste' and theory, but it had not yet become universal. It was attacked by the loremasters, who pointed out that the damage this merging would do in confusing stems and their derivate, that had been distinct in sound and sense had not yet been sufficiently considered. The chief of the linguistic loremasters5 at that time was Fëanor. He insisted that Þ was the true pronunciation for all who cared for or fully understood their language But in addition to linguistic taste and wisdom he had other motives. He was the eldest of Finwë's sons and the only child of his first wife MÃ*riel. She was a Ñoldorin Elda of slender and graceful form, and of gentle disposition, though as was later discovered in matters far more grave, she could show an ultimate obstinacy that counsel or command would only make more obdurate.

Note 5: They continued to deplore it, and were able to insist later that the distinction between older Þ and s should at least always be preserved in writing.

Fëanor was right in all linguistic matters.

Now, do the Moriquendi go to the halls of Mandos when THEY are killed? I would assume not.

Now, this is weird.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by azalea
Now, do the Moriquendi go to the halls of Mandos when THEY are killed? I would assume not.

They do go to Mandos. From 'Laws and Customs among the Eldar':

Concerning the fate of other elves, especially of the Dark-elves who refused the summons to Aman, the Eldar know little. The re-born report that in Mandos there are many elves, and among them many of the Alamanyar,(39) but that there is in the Halls of Waiting little mingling or communing of kind with kind, or indeed of any one fea with another.

(Alamanyar was later emended to Úmanyar).

[azalea]

Ah, thanks for that quote. So the trick if you were the child of a Moriquendi was...to get killed. Then you'd go to Mandos instead of fading. OR maybe when they faded they went to the same place men did when they died? Is that a possibility?

EDIT: I actually meant to say AVARI: see below.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by azalea
Ah, thanks for that quote. So the trick if you were the child of a Moriquendi was...to get killed. Then you'd go to Mandos instead of fading.

Funny way to look at it, but I see the logic. But you are assuming that the Moriquendi wished to leave Middle-Earth, which is not necessarily true.

OR maybe when they faded they went to the same place men did when they died? Is that a possibility?

Well, Men also are summoned to Mandos when they die, but they stay only for a short while, before they leave Arda. Elves and Men are separated in the halls of Mandos, and the Elves cannot escape Arda as long as it lasts, so I think the answer to your question is no.

[Artanis]

RÃ*an, thanks for sharing your knowledge of the meaning of 'Shibboleth', I have wondered about that. I hadn't read the Þ->s part of the Shibboleth when I wondered about your 'Yeth', but I have now! Miriel used the Þ and wanted everyone in her house to do the same, and Finwë did as long as she lived. But when she died, he changed from Þ to s, and moreover, Indis chose to use s as well. So, to Fëanor, not using the little character Þ became a symbol of rejection of his mother Miriel Þerindë. What a mess out of small details! I can't help thinking Fëanor was a bit 'jumpy' and read insults where there were none.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Funny way to look at it, but I see the logic. But you are assuming that the Moriquendi wished to leave Middle-Earth, which is not necessarily true.Well, Men also are summoned to Mandos when they die, but they stay only for a short while, before they leave Arda. Elves and Men are separated in the halls of Mandos, and the Elves cannot escape Arda as long as it lasts, so I think the answer to your question is no.

Can Men refuse the summons of Mandos? What happens if they don't answer it?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Can Men refuse the summons of Mandos? What happens if they don't answer it?

I'm sure they can refuse the summons, they have got a free will, but I'm not sure what become of them if they linger. I think that is one of the things the Elves has not bothered themselves with, as long as it didn't concern them and their history.

[azalea]

Lol, I realize I made an error in my last two posts -- I meant to say AVARI, not Moriquendi. I'm going back and editing my posts for clarity. Sorry about that!

Hey, didn't someone tell me the refusal of the summons was the reason for the faces in the Dead Marshes? Maybe that kind of thing is what happens to the men who refuse (or like the Barrow-wights).

Hey, is anyone tired of my crazy speculations yet? (don't answer that! ).

[Artanis]

Originally posted by azalea
Hey, didn't someone tell me the refusal of the summons was the reason for the faces in the Dead Marshes? Maybe that kind of thing is what happens to the men who refuse (or like the Barrow-wights).

That thought have entered my mind too. But I've got nothing to support it, so it's merely speculations. And both the Dead Marshes faces and the Barrow-wights could have been Elves as well.

Hey, is anyone tired of my crazy speculations yet? (don't answer that! ).

Yes' I'd like to answer that, and the answer is no.

[azalea]

[Attalus]

Weren't there faces of Orcs and Men in the Dead Marshes, also?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Attalus
Weren't there faces of Orcs and Men in the Dead Marshes, also?

I thought it was Men and Elves.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I seem to remember Orcs, Men, and Elves.

-looks through book-

'I know not who they are; but I thought I saw there Men and Elves, and Orcs beside them.'

[Attalus]

The quote is, "Frodo hid his eyes in his hands. 'I know not who they are; but I thought I saw there Men and Elves, and Orcs beside them.'
'Yes, yes,' said Gollum. 'All dead, all rotten. Elves and Men and Orcs. The Dead Marches.'" - "The Passage of the Marshes."

[azalea]

I didn't mean to imply that men were the only ones down there. I was just refering to them because of SGH's query about men refusing the summons. I meant that they, like elves, apparently could if that is why the faces were there.

But orcs couldn't go because they were irredeemable, right?