LoTR Discussion Project: Book II Chapter 4: A journey in the dark

[Rían]

Thanks, Eärniel! Good summary -

Originally Posted by Eärniel

...which goes to show that in each of these small grumpy men, there’s a poet waiting to get out.

I like that!

An interesting tidbit: When the Fellowship is considering whether to go on or return to Rivendell, Gandalf says: “ The Ringwraiths are deadly enemies, but they are only shadows yet of the power and terror they would possess if the Ruling Ring was on their master’s hand again.”

To me, they were already plenty scary! That was a good line.

1) Gandalf states he had considered the possibility of passing through Moria already in the beginning. I wonder whether this would have influenced the addition of Gimli to the Fellowship. Would Gandalf have specifically wanted a Dwarf to join the Fellowship because of Dwarves’ innate skills in mines and not just to represent all the Free People of Middle-earth?

Good thought - I bet that definitely had a bit to do with it.

3) The Watcher in the Water forcefully closes the Gatedoors of Moria when its plan to grab Frodo failed. Would it have been under Sauron’s command or perhaps under that of the Balrog? Is it a coincidence that-since it failed to get Frodo- it therefore locked up the entire Fellowship in the Mines? And just how intelligent do you think the Watcher is?

I think it was a kind of act of petulance - evil seems to often be petulant. "If they got away from ME, then I'm shutting them up in that place where I know there's some nasty orcs! The NERVE of them throwing a rock in MY waters! I'll show THEM!" I think it's under its own leadership, as the line from Gandalf says, altho I think it would have to bow to Sauron if he showed up.

The mountain was also "petulant" - that last little bit of snow dumped as the fellowship left.

4) Frodo finds out in the mines that his night-sight has improved and ascribes it to the wound he received from the Ringwraiths. He also think something might be following them. We later learn what it was, but what did you think it was, the first time you read LoTR? Do you still remember? My first time around I thought it had merely been Frodo’s imagination.

I thought that night-vision line was interesting - and somewhat creepy - makes you think "what is he going to be seeing as we get futher along?" I don't remember what I thought the following thing was - prob. an orc. Too long and too many readings ago!

Apart from the fireworks, the fight with the wolves is the first time we get to see Gandalf's "magic" at first hand and in earnest. What were your impressions of this first time you read it?

We also have disappearing wolf bodies. What's going with that? Where did they go? What kind of creature do you think they are?

I think I read the Hobbit before LOTR (can't even remember THAT now! Too long ago!) and Gandy seems to have a thing with fire and wolves! The disappearing thing kind of confused me - seemed to be one of the few almost "cheats" of the book. It seemed like evil always worked with real things, or illusions - not illusions that were real, if you know what I mean, and this just didn't seem to fit in. But maybe just the one wolf was real, and the others kind of an illusion off of him - that would fit in better - never thought of that before.

[LickTheEnvelope]

1. I believe 'Elrond' set Gimli in the fellowship simply because each race seemed to have it's own strengths and weaknesses. Having to surpass a multitude of obsticles along the way its only natural to think that the group would need expertise in travelling any road.

2. The fact that after they escaped the mines the 'power' had dissipated was pressumably do to poor communication, if indeed this power came from Sarumon or Sauron at all. They may have used up power with the first weather change? Or possibly they beleived the company would be killed by the Wargs, Gate keeper, or orcs/trolls/balrog in Moria.

3. I saw the 'Gate Keeper' creature as being draw to the power of the ring as he went for Frodo first. I don't think he was litteraly "under the control.." of any being, but was probobly placed there with evil intent.

4. I beleive it mentions many times there-after that Gollum had "picked up their trail in the mines of Moria." So that's what I am led to beleive.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

if you pass the doors of Moria: beware!
These were the words spoken by Aragorn to Gandalf before the wolf attack. It also says that Aragorn had passed throught Moria before. Maybe he knew what Durin's Bane was, maybe this was a warning to Gandalf that if he assed through Moria he would meet one of equal strenght to him.

[Fat middle]

I asked this question four or five years ago, but nobody could help me: does anybody know if there is some kind of map of Moria?

I mean, has anybody drawn a map of Moria following the description that Tolkien wrote?

Elanor the Fair was posting some nice maps that I hadn't seen before (like the map of the Prancing Pony), so I was wondering if perhaps there would be also one of Moria.

If not... somebody should draw it

[Earniel]

A map of Moria... now that's an interesting notion, although I would deem it quite impossible to make. For one the information in LoTR is only of the corridors, staircases and floors the Fellowship tracked through. The rest of Moria is pretty much undefined. And you'd have to make a map of each level, and Moria has a lot of levels IMO. Still... it'd be interesting to attempt one.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i think most of the levels were fairly similar to one another, though, apart from level 1 of old moria of course

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Or maybe they had "Desecrate Balin's Tomb" on their 'TO-DO List'... but just hadn't gotten 'round to it yet??

Or perhaps some minor protective spells or curses had been laid upon it by the dwarves who entombed him.
As for the watcher in the water, and perhaps the cranky spirit of the mountain, I suspect that the Balrog had some control or influence over them. You do not spend spend centuries in close proximity to an awake Balrog without it gaing some sort of effect over you.

[Curubethion]

About the Watcher...I think that it was partly the Balrog, and partly the ring. After all, it chose to grab Frodo, the ringbearer.