Are Ents immortal? - Page 2

Falagar · 01-03-2003, 04:21 PM

Treebeard was the 'oldest living being', so thus I would say they immortal. They may become treeish, but they don't 'die'

And of course they may be slain, the question is: where do they go afterwards?

cassiopeia · 01-04-2003, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Falagar
And of course they may be slain, the question is: where do they go afterwards?

I suppose they either go to the halls of Mandos or where men go. I don't know. I did a quick check of Morgoths Ring and Tolkien questions what happens to Ents (and also Trolls and Dwarves) after they die. The question remained unanswered. Just because Ents die doesn't mean they are mortal. Elves can die, but they are immortal.

samwiselvr2008 · 01-04-2003, 08:21 PM

So, dose anyone know if they are imortal or mortal as a fact?

Dúnedain · 01-05-2003, 01:40 AM

I don't know it as a fact, however, I think as it was mentioned above they can become 'treeish'. Now if they do become 'treeish' they technically can die off so I would say they are mortal in the sense that they are a living and growing thing that can die off...

BeardofPants · 01-05-2003, 03:47 AM

Yes, but would they still become tree-ish if the Entwives were still around?

Dúnedain · 01-05-2003, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Yes, but would they still become tree-ish if the Entwives were still around?

Good point.

So then we need to look at this in another perspective. This means we need to look at where Ents came from. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember Treebeard saying that the Elves woke them up and gave them the powers that be or what have you. Now if this is the case, then I guess it is safe to assume that they are immortal from that perspective. Those that live on assuming the life/powers that the Elves awoke in them, then yes they are immortal. However, if they go on and fall from that grace and become treeish, then they forget who they are and what they've become, thus reverting back to the mortality of a tree....

Falagar · 01-05-2003, 07:58 AM

The Elves, perhaps, learned them how to speak, but it was Yavanna who made them (if I'm correct...tried to look up the quote in the Silm.)

Laurelyn · 01-05-2003, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Attalus
There is no Dutch Ent Disease.

*Snerk-sob*

Eothain · 01-06-2003, 04:23 PM

I don't know.

BeardofPants · 01-07-2003, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Falagar
The Elves, perhaps, learned them how to speak, but it was Yavanna who made them (if I'm correct...tried to look up the quote in the Silm.)

Even so, there is a parallel between the elves being doomed to fade, and ents being doomed to becoming tree-ish.

Another question: how does the 'birth' of the ents fit in with Illuvater being the only one would could create life, rather than pervert? Surely Yavanna's creations should have mirrored those of Aule? (I'm not too familiar with ent origins, so if someone could explain how Tolkien got around this one...)

olsonm · 01-07-2003, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants

Another question: how does the 'birth' of the ents fit in with Illuvater being the only one would could create life, rather than pervert? Surely Yavanna's creations should have mirrored those of Aule? (I'm not too familiar with ent origins, so if someone could explain how Tolkien got around this one...)

Yavanna didn't make the ents, she asked Eru to give her something to look after her specialty. Eru told her (thru Manwe) not to worry about it. It's in the sil chapter "Of Aule and Yavanna"

Falagar · 01-07-2003, 12:24 PM

Yeah, sorry for that one. Begins to get some time since I read the Silm.

Anyway, at least it was she who proposed their making

Finmandos12 · 01-07-2003, 01:40 PM

Technically, no species had immortality. A better word for what the elves had is "serial longevity". They did not die by themselves, unless they were actually killed.

**Nurvingiel** · 01-10-2003, 04:14 AM

My mom said that to be immortal you had to be immune to being killed completely, so then not even elves are technically immortal.

If Ents can become tree-ish, would they become trees at this point? If this is the case, then they would be mortal, because all trees have a finite life-span. (Even the knotty pine, the oldest living species - there are two that are 5000 years old!)

This leads me to another question: If there was a forest fire in Fangorn, would the Ents put it out? The obvious answer is yes, but that isn't necessarily the best thing for a forest. On the other hand, Ents would be very sad if any of their tree friends were killed in a forest fire. So how to the Ents manage their forest sustainably?

If a tree isn't destroyed by natural causes, like fire, for example, then it will slowly rot on the inside until it dies. (This happens once its lived out its natural life span.) The Ents would live to see many trees die in this manner, or be killed by natural causes.

Falagar · 01-10-2003, 08:32 AM

But Elves are reborn, so they are immortal (at least their soul/fëa is, until the world ends)...They may be killed, but they may come back again too.

Can Ents come back? Are they "reborned" in Valinor? Or do they go to the same place as Men? Or do they go to a completely different place?
I don't think Tolkien ever thought of this, at least he didn't write about it (or? Anybody have read something about this?).

BeardofPants · 01-10-2003, 03:11 PM

Well, technically, since there is an expiration date on the elves, they aren't immortal either.

Falagar · 01-10-2003, 03:14 PM

When is that expire date? (I'm not finished with the "Laws and Costumes among the Eldar" yet) When the world ends?

BeardofPants · 01-10-2003, 03:24 PM

markedel · 01-11-2003, 10:30 AM

But both elves and ents have a set point where they fade from the physical world, and remain only as some sort of spiritual glimmer.

durin's bane · 01-11-2003, 11:50 AM

I think they're immortal, after all, they've been alive for thousands of years.

01-03-2003, 04:21 PM	#21
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	Treebeard was the 'oldest living being', so thus I would say they immortal. They may become treeish, but they don't 'die' And of course they may be slain, the question is: where do they go afterwards? __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

01-04-2003, 08:21 PM	#23
samwiselvr2008 Elf Lord Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 739	So, dose anyone know if they are imortal or mortal as a fact? __________________ Jesus loves you! Movie vewing count from the theater: Return of the King:9 Two Towers: 11 Fellowship: 13 FRODO LIVES!

01-05-2003, 03:47 AM	#25
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Yes, but would they still become tree-ish if the Entwives were still around? __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

01-05-2003, 07:58 AM	#27
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	The Elves, perhaps, learned them how to speak, but it was Yavanna who made them (if I'm correct...tried to look up the quote in the Silm.) __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 01-05-2003 at 08:03 AM.

01-06-2003, 04:23 PM	#29
Eothain Enting Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 73	LOTR I don't know. __________________ Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing? Where is the hand on the harpsting, and the red fire glowing? Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing? They have past like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow; The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow. Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning, or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning? Frodo lives

01-05-2003, 01:40 AM	#24
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	I don't know it as a fact, however, I think as it was mentioned above they can become 'treeish'. Now if they do become 'treeish' they technically can die off so I would say they are mortal in the sense that they are a living and growing thing that can die off...

01-07-2003, 12:24 PM	#32
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	Yeah, sorry for that one. Begins to get some time since I read the Silm. Anyway, at least it was she who proposed their making __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

01-07-2003, 01:40 PM	#33
Finmandos12 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Tampa Posts: 327	Technically, no species had immortality. A better word for what the elves had is "serial longevity". They did not die by themselves, unless they were actually killed. __________________ The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

01-10-2003, 08:32 AM	#35
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	But Elves are reborn, so they are immortal (at least their soul/fëa is, until the world ends)...They may be killed, but they may come back again too. Can Ents come back? Are they "reborned" in Valinor? Or do they go to the same place as Men? Or do they go to a completely different place? I don't think Tolkien ever thought of this, at least he didn't write about it (or? Anybody have read something about this?). __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 01-10-2003 at 08:33 AM.

01-10-2003, 03:11 PM	#36
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Well, technically, since there is an expiration date on the elves, they aren't immortal either. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

01-10-2003, 03:14 PM	#37
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	When is that expire date? (I'm not finished with the "Laws and Costumes among the Eldar" yet) When the world ends? __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

01-10-2003, 03:24 PM	#38
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Yup. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

01-11-2003, 10:30 AM	#39
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	But both elves and ents have a set point where they fade from the physical world, and remain only as some sort of spiritual glimmer. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

01-11-2003, 11:50 AM	#40
durin's bane Lady of Westernesse Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Canada (Help! Our parliament building is melting!) Posts: 761	I think they're immortal, after all, they've been alive for thousands of years. __________________ Yada, yada, yada

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