Didn't Sauron Know? - Page 2

entss89 · 08-22-2002, 08:15 PM

NO CLUE!

Celebrian · 09-01-2002, 12:26 PM

Maybe Sauron didn't realize how much the ring was a part of him. He might have thought it was like the other rings, except that it was evil and could control all the other rings of power.

UnStashable · 09-01-2002, 03:43 PM

I could be wrong but I think even the white council wasn't sure that destorying the ring as Frodo did would destroy/bannish/get rid of sauron like it did. It was just thier best hope. I'm not sure about anything though

Sween · 09-01-2002, 03:53 PM

theres a lot of doubt in the book. the only thing that they are all clear on is the one ring must be destroyed or all would come to ruin.

They knew if sauron got the ring he would win but they didnt know it would defeat him but they knew with it he would destroy them all.

aeglos · 09-02-2002, 01:44 AM

This is one of the weakest parts of the books. Did Tolkien plan the LOTR while he wrote the Hobbit? If so, I think he had some tracks to cover. The fact that the Nazgul were so attuned to the ring that Gandalf and Aragon admonished Frodo to never use the Ring, heck Gollum and especially Bilbo used the ring alot in the Hobbit (and had none of the efffects that Frodo would have) and at that time Mirkwood Forest was Sauron's territory. Add to the fact that Sauruman was looking into the area around Gladden Fields and Sauron had to know his intentions. So why was the Ring so hard top find? Also the title Bilbo got from the dwarves (thief)and his ability to vanish had to be spoken about after the Battle of Five Armies. The other mystery is how Sauron got the ring back to middle earth since he was "not of mortal flesh and though he was robbed now of that shape" and "his spirt arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and black wind over the sea"

***Earniel*** · 09-03-2002, 07:45 AM

Tolkien had no plan for LOTR when he wrote the Hobbit. He only wrote LOTR due to popular demand. He only had the idea of making Bilbo's ring the One Ring years after the Hobbit.

Bilbo did use the ring a lot after his adventure with the dragon. In my view he could do so unnoticed was because Sauron didn't know who had it or where it was. Don't forget that he learned only through Gollum that Bilbo Baggins from the Shire held his ring. He then sent out his nazgul to find this area called the Shire, he didn't know where it was. So I take it that the nazgul - or Sauron's for that matter - attunement to the ring didn't work over long distances or is less thorough than expected. Another factor is that at the time of LOTR Sauron had grown back to power at a surprising rate and then he could devote all his time and resources to search for his ring.

aeglos · 09-03-2002, 02:12 PM

You make some good points, however the ring betrayed Isildur, and was always trying to get back to unite with Sauron. It used Bulbo to escape Gollum, it must have been transmitting everytime Bilbo used it. The fact that there were major battles still going on at the time and the Nazgul were highly visible I just don't see how he could not have none. However Tolkien does have poetic license and it does make for a better story, otherwise the Nazgul would have retrieved the ring and no LOTR.

***Earniel*** · 09-03-2002, 03:49 PM

True, the ring had a bit of a mind of it's own but it couldn't do more than abandoning his bearer when it thought the time was right or influencing their thoughts. It's very possible that it sent out a sort of siren call when Bilbo used it but seeing that it failed to reach Sauron all those years I can only conclude that it had a short range.

Above that Sauron was arrogant. (which dark lord isn't?) He couldn't imagine any one wanting to destroy the ring instead of using it. The idea that only a small band of people would enter Mordor to do so was probably so outlandish that he didn't think it possible. He expected his enemies to come in large numbers, with a vast army. That's in my opinion why he was so distracted by the attack at the Morannon that he didn't notice that the Ring was on Mount Doom, in the very heart of his realm. The fact that he didn't notice it could off course be due to this attack but to me it again demonstrates that his connection with the ring didn't include a GPS.

aeglos · 09-03-2002, 09:58 PM

That's another point of interest. If I knew that the ring was in the hands of my enimies, and I knew that Elrond and Aragon, and Glorfindel were invovled and that the ring was at least on it's way to Rivendale and Gandalf had escaped from Sauruman, I'd think I'd go to defcon 5. My whole existence was in the hands of a Hobbit! But Sauron continues on with his siege of Gondor and even the Nazgul are not looking for the Ring!!!

Sween · 09-04-2002, 05:00 AM

Sauron though he knew perfectally well where the ring was. he thought merry and pippin had it. He figured there stratergy woulkd be to bring it to minas Tirith then march on mordor. he wasnt even sure that they were going to attemp to destroy. he never imigined that 2 hobbits would be creeping through mordor as he unleased his army

Lanelf · 09-04-2002, 06:02 AM

Sauron must have known the Ring existed. After all, he was 'seeking it' and who's going to look for something they don't actually believe exists? But, Sauron could just have been dumber than I thought he was.

Melkor's still better than him! Archbob the Elder was right! *chants 'Sauron's a wanna-be, Sauron's a wanna-be'* *Ahem* Ok now. Right. What was I saying?

Beruthiel · 09-04-2002, 07:34 AM

Right, Lets' look at it a little more systematically.

Gollum had the Ring for years and wasn't found. He used it to catch fish, and to sneak up on rabbits for his food. In all that time, Sauron was unable to find him.

Bilbo used the Ring for an odd 30 years or more for "borrowing", sneaking away from his neighbors, and walking in the woods unheeded. Sauron didn't find him!

When Gollum went sneaking towards Mordor, he was captured, and tortured, not for info on the Ring, but why he was there!..But he gave all that info anyway. His words were translated and understood. THAT was the moment that Sauron became aware the the One Ring had not washed into the Sea by way of the Great Anduin.

Did Sauron know of Aragorn? Not until Aragron made himself known in the Palantir. If Sauron had known that an Heir of Isuldur was alive, he would have sent out the Wraiths and bands of Orcs a lot earlier. Aragorn lived by stealth. He never used his full and right name, and always kept his real heritage under his hat, until he met Frodo.

Did Sauron know that Frodo was being helped by Glorfindel, the Legendary Elf of Old, or Aragorn, or Gandalf?

Certainly, once the Wraiths had been drowned and returned in spirit to Moria, there must have been a report of Glorfindel's existance (for the captain of the Nazgul knew Glorindel by sight from his dealing with him in Amon Sul.) Gandalf is easy enough to pick out, but Aragorn seems only a man. I think that the Wraiths might have reported the help of Elrond, because of the use of his Ring in creating the flood that drowned them.

Many of my friends have said that the One Ring was possibly more powerful in itself than Sauron was. It had a mind of its own. Sometimes I believe that out of malice, it wanted to live its own life, and not serve Sauron nearly as neatly as it is described. Perhaps even Sauron had to force it to his domination - force it to do his will.

Anybody agree with that? (I know there will be disagreement.)

BeardofPants · 09-04-2002, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beruthiel
Anybody agree with that? (I know there will be disagreement.)

No way, Jose. Sauron was the one who put the power into the ring in the first place. To suggest a dissident power, would suggest that someone apart from Sauron put the power into the ring.

Beruthiel · 09-04-2002, 08:11 AM

I never sugested there was a "dissident" power. I suggested that just as Sauron was evil, so should his ring be. It is obvious that even evil people have problems with dual personalities, such a s Gollum/Smeagol.
In this case we are merely speaking of Ring/Sauron.

BeardofPants · 09-04-2002, 08:21 AM

Duality implies dissidence. Refer to the slinker/stinker example. Nope. I don't buy it.

Beruthiel · 09-04-2002, 08:36 AM

mmmm...interesting that the Ring never found it's way back to it's master.

I think that Gandalf's description of the Ring as "Continually seeking its maker" is a simplification. Certainly it does, but along the way it seeks to create the most evil by finding the most powerful person it can latch onto and doing more evil (before it gets back to Sauron's hand. )
Does that not suggest a duality of purpose? Or do you call that "just doing evil anywhichwayyoucan?"

BeardofPants · 09-04-2002, 08:41 AM

Personally, I think it was more a case of bad judgement than wreaking havoc. It left Isildur because he was going the wrong way (basically), it latched onto Gollum because it looked like it could hitch a ride with him to the orcs (and then from the orcs to Sauron). But then, by going with Smeagol, it made a very grave mistake, and was found by an unlikely individual. Bilbo. Then it went to the Shire, and yada yada yada.

Sween · 09-04-2002, 09:30 AM

i think that the ring wanted to go with bilbo it saw that with gollum it would simply just spend existance in his dark cave.

The ring went to gollum because smegol was a bit of a nasty peice of work.

the ring was more than happy to go with bilbo or for that matter anyone.

Nibs · 09-04-2002, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sween
The ring went to gollum because smegol was a bit of a nasty peice of work.

They're one and the same. Give or take five hundred years and emotional torment.

And about the dispute whether Sauron really knew, it seems to make more sense that he did know. I'd go through all the implications, except... they are so numerous and I am so lethargic.

Blackheart · 09-04-2002, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants

No way, Jose. Sauron was the one who put the power into the ring in the first place. To suggest a dissident power, would suggest that someone apart from Sauron put the power into the ring.

Actually, there's quite a bit of support for the idea that it wasn't Sauron's power in the ring at all.

According to several theories he forged the ring to tap into the latent power invested in Arda by Melkor. Any power Sauron invested in the ring was likely used to forge the link itself, not "charge the battery".

08-22-2002, 08:15 PM	#21
entss89 lord of the ents Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: nc Posts: 539	HI NO CLUE!

09-01-2002, 12:26 PM	#22
Celebrian Enting Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Calgary Posts: 75	Maybe Sauron didn't realize how much the ring was a part of him. He might have thought it was like the other rings, except that it was evil and could control all the other rings of power. __________________ All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost. Tall ships and tall kings, three times three. What brought they form the foundered land Over the flowing sea? Seven stars and seven stones and one white tree.

09-01-2002, 03:43 PM	#23
UnStashable Enting Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 52	I could be wrong but I think even the white council wasn't sure that destorying the ring as Frodo did would destroy/bannish/get rid of sauron like it did. It was just thier best hope. I'm not sure about anything though __________________ This elevator only goes to the basement, and sombody made an awful mess down there

09-01-2002, 03:53 PM	#24
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	theres a lot of doubt in the book. the only thing that they are all clear on is the one ring must be destroyed or all would come to ruin. They knew if sauron got the ring he would win but they didnt know it would defeat him but they knew with it he would destroy them all. __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

09-02-2002, 01:44 AM	#25
aeglos Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Salem Oregon Posts: 17	This is one of the weakest parts of the books. Did Tolkien plan the LOTR while he wrote the Hobbit? If so, I think he had some tracks to cover. The fact that the Nazgul were so attuned to the ring that Gandalf and Aragon admonished Frodo to never use the Ring, heck Gollum and especially Bilbo used the ring alot in the Hobbit (and had none of the efffects that Frodo would have) and at that time Mirkwood Forest was Sauron's territory. Add to the fact that Sauruman was looking into the area around Gladden Fields and Sauron had to know his intentions. So why was the Ring so hard top find? Also the title Bilbo got from the dwarves (thief)and his ability to vanish had to be spoken about after the Battle of Five Armies. The other mystery is how Sauron got the ring back to middle earth since he was "not of mortal flesh and though he was robbed now of that shape" and "his spirt arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and black wind over the sea" __________________ all that glitters is not gold all that wander are not lost

09-03-2002, 07:45 AM	#26
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Tolkien had no plan for LOTR when he wrote the Hobbit. He only wrote LOTR due to popular demand. He only had the idea of making Bilbo's ring the One Ring years after the Hobbit. Bilbo did use the ring a lot after his adventure with the dragon. In my view he could do so unnoticed was because Sauron didn't know who had it or where it was. Don't forget that he learned only through Gollum that Bilbo Baggins from the Shire held his ring. He then sent out his nazgul to find this area called the Shire, he didn't know where it was. So I take it that the nazgul - or Sauron's for that matter - attunement to the ring didn't work over long distances or is less thorough than expected. Another factor is that at the time of LOTR Sauron had grown back to power at a surprising rate and then he could devote all his time and resources to search for his ring. __________________ We are not things.

09-03-2002, 02:12 PM	#27
aeglos Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Salem Oregon Posts: 17	location of the ring You make some good points, however the ring betrayed Isildur, and was always trying to get back to unite with Sauron. It used Bulbo to escape Gollum, it must have been transmitting everytime Bilbo used it. The fact that there were major battles still going on at the time and the Nazgul were highly visible I just don't see how he could not have none. However Tolkien does have poetic license and it does make for a better story, otherwise the Nazgul would have retrieved the ring and no LOTR. __________________ all that glitters is not gold all that wander are not lost

09-03-2002, 03:49 PM	#28
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	True, the ring had a bit of a mind of it's own but it couldn't do more than abandoning his bearer when it thought the time was right or influencing their thoughts. It's very possible that it sent out a sort of siren call when Bilbo used it but seeing that it failed to reach Sauron all those years I can only conclude that it had a short range. Above that Sauron was arrogant. (which dark lord isn't?) He couldn't imagine any one wanting to destroy the ring instead of using it. The idea that only a small band of people would enter Mordor to do so was probably so outlandish that he didn't think it possible. He expected his enemies to come in large numbers, with a vast army. That's in my opinion why he was so distracted by the attack at the Morannon that he didn't notice that the Ring was on Mount Doom, in the very heart of his realm. The fact that he didn't notice it could off course be due to this attack but to me it again demonstrates that his connection with the ring didn't include a GPS. __________________ We are not things.

09-03-2002, 09:58 PM	#29
aeglos Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Salem Oregon Posts: 17	That's another point of interest. If I knew that the ring was in the hands of my enimies, and I knew that Elrond and Aragon, and Glorfindel were invovled and that the ring was at least on it's way to Rivendale and Gandalf had escaped from Sauruman, I'd think I'd go to defcon 5. My whole existence was in the hands of a Hobbit! But Sauron continues on with his siege of Gondor and even the Nazgul are not looking for the Ring!!! __________________ all that glitters is not gold all that wander are not lost

09-04-2002, 05:00 AM	#30
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	Sauron though he knew perfectally well where the ring was. he thought merry and pippin had it. He figured there stratergy woulkd be to bring it to minas Tirith then march on mordor. he wasnt even sure that they were going to attemp to destroy. he never imigined that 2 hobbits would be creeping through mordor as he unleased his army __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

09-04-2002, 06:02 AM	#31
Lanelf Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Second Drawer Down Posts: 407	Sssauron'ssss ssssstupid, Preciousssss... Sauron must have known the Ring existed. After all, he was 'seeking it' and who's going to look for something they don't actually believe exists? But, Sauron could just have been dumber than I thought he was. Melkor's still better than him! Archbob the Elder was right! chants 'Sauron's a wanna-be, Sauron's a wanna-be' Ahem Ok now. Right. What was I saying? __________________ Hey, I'm back! resounding silence You didn't even notice I was gone, did you? Well, I'm back now anyway. Artemis Fowl must find Mulch Diggums! You'll never shut down the real Napster

09-04-2002, 07:34 AM	#32
Beruthiel Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 41	Right, Lets' look at it a little more systematically. Gollum had the Ring for years and wasn't found. He used it to catch fish, and to sneak up on rabbits for his food. In all that time, Sauron was unable to find him. Bilbo used the Ring for an odd 30 years or more for "borrowing", sneaking away from his neighbors, and walking in the woods unheeded. Sauron didn't find him! When Gollum went sneaking towards Mordor, he was captured, and tortured, not for info on the Ring, but why he was there!..But he gave all that info anyway. His words were translated and understood. THAT was the moment that Sauron became aware the the One Ring had not washed into the Sea by way of the Great Anduin. Did Sauron know of Aragorn? Not until Aragron made himself known in the Palantir. If Sauron had known that an Heir of Isuldur was alive, he would have sent out the Wraiths and bands of Orcs a lot earlier. Aragorn lived by stealth. He never used his full and right name, and always kept his real heritage under his hat, until he met Frodo. Did Sauron know that Frodo was being helped by Glorfindel, the Legendary Elf of Old, or Aragorn, or Gandalf? Certainly, once the Wraiths had been drowned and returned in spirit to Moria, there must have been a report of Glorfindel's existance (for the captain of the Nazgul knew Glorindel by sight from his dealing with him in Amon Sul.) Gandalf is easy enough to pick out, but Aragorn seems only a man. I think that the Wraiths might have reported the help of Elrond, because of the use of his Ring in creating the flood that drowned them. Many of my friends have said that the One Ring was possibly more powerful in itself than Sauron was. It had a mind of its own. Sometimes I believe that out of malice, it wanted to live its own life, and not serve Sauron nearly as neatly as it is described. Perhaps even Sauron had to force it to his domination - force it to do his will. Anybody agree with that? (I know there will be disagreement.) Last edited by Beruthiel : 09-04-2002 at 07:39 AM.

09-04-2002, 08:11 AM	#34
Beruthiel Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 41	I never sugested there was a "dissident" power. I suggested that just as Sauron was evil, so should his ring be. It is obvious that even evil people have problems with dual personalities, such a s Gollum/Smeagol. In this case we are merely speaking of Ring/Sauron.

09-04-2002, 08:21 AM	#35
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Duality implies dissidence. Refer to the slinker/stinker example. Nope. I don't buy it. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

09-04-2002, 08:36 AM	#36
Beruthiel Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 41	mmmm...interesting that the Ring never found it's way back to it's master. I think that Gandalf's description of the Ring as "Continually seeking its maker" is a simplification. Certainly it does, but along the way it seeks to create the most evil by finding the most powerful person it can latch onto and doing more evil (before it gets back to Sauron's hand. ) Does that not suggest a duality of purpose? Or do you call that "just doing evil anywhichwayyoucan?"

09-04-2002, 08:41 AM	#37
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Personally, I think it was more a case of bad judgement than wreaking havoc. It left Isildur because he was going the wrong way (basically), it latched onto Gollum because it looked like it could hitch a ride with him to the orcs (and then from the orcs to Sauron). But then, by going with Smeagol, it made a very grave mistake, and was found by an unlikely individual. Bilbo. Then it went to the Shire, and yada yada yada. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

09-04-2002, 09:30 AM	#38
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	i think that the ring wanted to go with bilbo it saw that with gollum it would simply just spend existance in his dark cave. The ring went to gollum because smegol was a bit of a nasty peice of work. the ring was more than happy to go with bilbo or for that matter anyone. __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

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