Breaking of the Fellowship

[Menelvagor]

That was part of the reason behind Aragorn's choice. Can you imagine what could've happened had Aragorn been corrupted by the ring? He could. It's established early in the book that Hobbits are more resistant to the ring than men. Granted Aragorn was much stronger of will than ordinary men; the blood of Numenor ran true in his veins. But look what happened to Numenor. Besides, would Frodo and Sam have actually done better with him there? He couldn't have done better than Gollum in the dead marshes (it says that if the hobbits had weighed much more the would not have been able to pass, Aragorn was a tall, strong man; they might have had to go around, creating more of a delay), he would have prevented the fire that lead Faramir to them, yes he might have been useful against Shelob, but when they were overtaken by the orcs, they wouldn't have been able to pass themselves off as orcs, and he probably wouldn't have let Gollum live. And as someone said (sorry, I forgot who you were) Aragorn was Isildur's heir, how do you think he would have faired in the Sammath Naur?

Conclusion: Aragorn was much more useful/important going west from Parth Galen.

Sheesh, long post.

[Menelvagor]

Another conclusion: A lot of the things that let the quest succeed happened through Frodo and Sam's inexpirience.

[arenya]

also, a lot of the book's emotional points would have been lost if the entire company left to mordor. i think the two highest points of the ending are sam's song in the tower of cirith ungol, and the reaction of pippin to denethor's madness. if the entire company had been in the tower, character development with sam would never have happened, and with 5 people running through the tower, it would have been more likely to have all of them get caught. in gondor, as pippin takes charge and goes for gandalf after denethor goess mad, we see more character development. again, if there had been too many people accompanying pippin, then the light would have been thrown on an entire group and not just one hobbit, which could have destroyed the whole poignancy of that particular scene. (by poignancy, i mean pippin's realization that he is the only one who can do anything to stop the senseless murder of two important people)

sorry about the loooong post!

[cassiopeia]

Thank you Menelvagor for putting it better than I. I was thinking that, even if it didn't say it in the book, Aragorn could be corrupted and be a terrible ruler. It may have taken longer, but he might have been corrupted. Boromir was corrupted earlier. Aragorn did have Numenorean blood, and they were corrupted by Sauron which led to the destruction of Numenor.

[RosieCotton]

Good point Harad, about going with Frodo and Sam. Yet they weren't captured by Orcs (yet) and Merry and Pippin were in more immediate danger. Plus, the story wouldn't have been as good if the whole Fellowship was tagging along behind Frodo and Sam.
Rosie

[TwirlingString]

Originally posted by Harad
At Parth Galen, Frodo and Sam go to Morrrdorr, Merry & Pippen "decide" to visit Isengard. Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli have to decide which direction to go.

The decision in the book, we all know, is that A, L, G follow M&P. There are many reasons pro and con. But since the Quest to destroy the OneRing is the most important TBD in all of ME, this decision always bothered me.

JRRT, of course, brilliantly devised his story to proceed from this decision. But on the grounds of the internal logic of the story do you feel the decision should have been:

1. just as in the book.

2. A,L,G should have followed F&S to give every advantage to the Quest which had over-riding importance.

3. A,L,G should have split, some going one way, some going the other.

(wish I could post a poll!)

I think it was the best idea. A group is easier to track than a few and a lot harder to get out of trouble. A bigger group would just have made the entire thing harder.

[Aragorn_iz_cool]

Well I think in that posistion, I'd hunt for sam and frodo

[TwirlingString]

Originally posted by Aragorn_iz_cool
Well I think in that posistion, I'd hunt for sam and frodo

Huh, you COMPLETELY lost me. Plus, think about, who would you REALLY rather track the ones heading towards humunguos danger, but can supposedly take care of themselves, or the nutsos who are really taggalong, but will most definatly end up in trouble that they can't take care of.

[Harad]

You have to put yourself in the position of Aragorn within the story. Aragorn does not know all the kwl stuff that will happen later in the story.

All he knows is that the Quest is the most important thing on ME. If it fails then nothing else matters. Therefore, and since he is a responsible person (not a flake like Pipsqueek for example) he should follow Frodo and Sam, who DEFINITELY NEED HELP.

Remember F&S had not left the Shire ever in their lives until 6 months ago and had never been in Mordor, while Aragorn had. Also Frodo has the nasssty habit of putting the Ring on in the worst circumstances...e.g. Bree and Weathertop.

Finally, as Frodo says, without Gollum they NEVER would have made it thru the Dead Marshes. Was Aragorn counting on Gollum helping them?

[Elf Girl]

Aragorn had been planning to go to Minas Tireth(sp?) all along, it was probably hard for him to change his plans.

[Harad]

Not true. After Gandalf fell in Moria, Aragorn thought:

His own plan, while Gandalf remained with them, had been to go with Boromir, and with his sword help to deliver Gondor. For he believed that the message of the dreams was a summons, and that the hour had come at last when the heir of Elendil should come forth and strive with Sauron for the mastery. But in Moria the burden of Gandalf had been laid on him; and he knew that he could not now forsake the Ring, if Frodo refused in the end to go with Boromir. And yet what help could he or any of the Company give to Frodo, save to walk blindly with him into the darkness?

Of course, JRRT wanted the story to go in another direction, and it did.

[Elf Girl]

I know, but I find it subconciously difficult to deviate from a plan, even if I know I have to and have been planning to for some time. The first plan seems to have higher priority with my subconcious. *shrug* Just me, I geuss.

[Menelvagor]

Originally posted by Harad
You have to put yourself in the position of Aragorn within the story. Aragorn does not know all the kwl stuff that will happen later in the story.

Aragorn did have forsight. True he did not know everything that was going to happen, and he probably didn't know about Gollum, but I think he might have known or felt that 1) they were fated to go alone (he even said that at some point, but I don't have the TT with me right now, so I don't have a direct quote) or 2) they would recieve unexpected help.

[Elf Girl]

I agree. As Galadriel says, "It is the fate of the Ringbearer to be alone". The matter was out of Aragorn's hands.

[Menelvagor]

And you also have to remember what he knew about Boromir and why Frodo decided to leave alone.

[Harad]

Galadriel only said that a Ringbearer should be alone in the PJ movie, not the book.

What who knew about Boromir: Aragorn? Aragorn in the book, never had any doubts about his strength, nor did Frodo distrust Aragorn in the book.

Aragorn made a second plan: to go with Frodo. That was the plan he had to "deviate" from at Parth Galen.

If you all simply want to say: "thats the way it was in the book--and thats good enuf for me." That's fine.

I am talking about a "what if", and looking at it from a viewpoint of what is sensible, NOT knowing what will happen. If you want to say that Aragorn knew what would happen--that's fine too. That's just not sensible.

Remember Elrond and the Council chose a Fellowship to help Frodo. And Gandalf for one said he would help him "as long as it is your burden to carry."

[Menelvagor]

Harad, you're fun to argue with.

I meant that Aragorn knew that Boromir had been corupted by the ring and had tried to take it from Frodo and that that most of all was why Frodo decided to go alone. Baring respect for Frodo's decision, he some of the thoughts running through his head were his own strength of will against the ring, mistrust of men on Frodo's part, Frodo's ability to survive, his previous promises both to go to Minas Tirith and to protect Frodo, stealth going into Mordor, the head start Frodo had on him across the river, his duty to Boromir, the fate of Merry and Pippin, and all the other events going on in the war. He knew that Saruman had turned to evil and that Gondor faced war from the East and west and probably didn't know it yet.

To me that seems fairly balanced, six to one- half a dozen to the other. But for the sake of the question, you cannot ignore Aragorn's skills. He had forsight and in such an important situation you would expect him to use it (or at least try). For me that just puts the edge on it. He says in 'The Departure of Boromir' (TTT chapter 1):

I would have guided Frodo to Mordor and gone with him to the end; but if I seek him now in the wilderness, I must abandon the captives to torment and death. My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the bearer is in my hands no longer. The company has played it's part.

[Earniel]

Yes Aragorn knew why Frodo decided to leave alone. I don't think it more a question wether Aragorn could be corrupted by the ring. I just think Frodo wouldn't trust any mortal anymore near the ring for long due to the effect ot had on Boromir. Aragorn had also responsibilities to the people of Gondor.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Harad
Galadriel only said that a Ringbearer should be alone in the PJ movie, not the book.

I know that, but it is tacitly understood in the book. Being a Ringbearer sets you apart from everyone except former Ringbearers (Bilbo) or very good friends (Sam).

[Harad]

Answering in turn:

Elfgirl:
Isn't saying "alone except a very good friend" a rationalization for what happened. Alone is "alone." Aragorn was a very good friend too--a friend in need (see answer to Earniel).

Earniel: (How do you get your accent above the "a"?)
Of course Sam was a mortal, and Frodo trusted him despite what Bilbo had done in Rivendell. Frodo had decided to go entirely alone but was happy when Sam ignored THAT decision. Aragorn had accompanied Frodo and the OneRing from Bree to Rivendell and saved them at Weathertop, not to mention in the Wilderness. There is never any question in the book of Frodo trusting Aragorn. That is played up in the movie, but even then Frodo accepts Aragorn at the end (IMO). In light of F&S being completely lost in the Emyn Muil and Dead Marshes, don't you think they would have preferred Aragorn catching up to them instead of Gollum?

As far as Aragorn's responsibilities to Gondor: what do they matter is the Quest fails? If Aragorn had helped F&S and shortened the trip to Mt Doom from 4 weeks to 2 weeks, e.g., then the battle at Gondor would never have taken place and countless Gondorians would have been saved.

Menelvagor:
Thank you, and you too have mentioned the points in your favor.

However, you must remember, that Frodo decided to go alone, according to Sam anyway, BEFORE Boromir attacked him. That was not because "ringbearers have to be alone" an interesting invention of the movie, but because Frodo wanted to save his comrades from what appeared to be a hopeless task. Its clear that Frodo was not 100% serious about this, if you look at the way he welcomed Sam.

The other points:

1. in the book Aragorn had NO doubts of his strength of will vis a vis the Ring
2.in the book there was no mistrust of men, as in the movie. Frodo mistrusted boromir. Frodo trusted aragorn.
3.frodo had NO ability to survive. Without TB from Shire to Bree, without Aragorn from Bree to Rivendell, without the Fellowship from Rivendell to Parth Galen, and without Gollum from Parth Galen to Cirith Ungol, Frodo was a dead burrahobbit. Aragorn knew this, yet trusted to dumb luck that Gollum? would help Frodo?
4.Stealth: Aragorn being the chief Ranger was the most stealthy wilderness traveler in ME
5.Frodo had a tiny head start on Aragorn. He was moving slowly and not concealing his tracks. M&P were the ones moving fast with their Uruk Hai honor guard. Aragorn could have caught up with F&S in a matter of hours. Aragorn NEVER caught up with M&P.
6.His duty to Boromir or Gondor is discussed above.
7. His duty to M&P is in contrast to his duty to F&S. In this case a future King has to weigh the benefit to 2 of his subjects vs his whole kingdom.
8. other events in the war were not known to Aragorn at that time