Tolkien's Racial and Polictical Implications

[Lightice]

I'm afraid, that I have to say, that Tolkien was a racist as some degree. It's not about skin color. It's that people from other parts of Middle Earth are always evil at some degree. Numeronians, the Kings of Men were white skinned, as well as were elves, the most fair of races. All good guys were caucasian. No negroid heroes.
And of that mention of brown hands...I doubt, that it means negroid brown, but more likely simply tanned skin.
Another of my favourite writers, H. P. Lovecraft mentioned brown skin on some not-so-bad-buys (he didn't have really good guys) and that proves, that he didn't mean negroid. He was one of the greatest novel-writers on Earth, but he was very, very racistic. In his opinion, jews and other "lower breed" men were good only for slavery, and couldn't think rationally at any level, and that negro-folk were just human-looking apes. He wasn't a nice person, but he wrote so damn good novels, that I could apologise him most of his idioticness. He was human-hater anyway, so he didn't really harm anybody. He just wrote and wrote. He had many admirers, including Robert Bloch, who later on wrote Psycho.
Well, I went really far into lands of Off Topic on this, but I wanted to explain backrounds.

[Elfstone.]

No offense and I can't stress that enough but you people!
Tolkien spent to his dieing days telling people he just wrote a story a darn good one too. And no offense again but all these people come along and say he meant this by this and that by that and the reason there's few women is because of this and all that crap. Just let it be it was and is and forever will be teh greatest Fantasy novels ever. No need to find some fault in it that Tolkien never imagined himself.

No offense again

Elfstone

[afro-elf]

Negroid to me has always made me laugh.

It brings to mind the image of black android.

[afro-elf]

All good guys were caucasian. No negroid heroes.

BUT many bad guys were fair skinned.


Saruman, Eol, Celegorm, Curufin, Ar-Pharazon ( makes me think of Louis Farakhan), Grima wormtongue. Tolkien even mentions about many Sindar serving Melkor.


The guy was writing a mythology of for Northern Europe.

Would you expect fair skinned heroes in a mythology of subsaharan Africa?


The Haradrim were not inherently evil. Recall Sam's pondering's about the " darkie", when Faramir's men attacked the Southrons.

And of that mention of brown hands...I doubt, that it means negroid brown, but more likely simply tanned skin.

What does Negroid brown mean.

Sade, Halle Barry, Lionel Ritchie, Toni Braxton and Vanessa Williams are "negro"


And so are Shaquille O'neal, Kofi Annan, Venus Williams and Pele.

Some Negroes can pass as white.

The term Negroid is in many ways a social as well as biological construct.

[Rána Eressëa]

Originally posted by afro-elf
The guy was writing a mythology of for Northern Europe.

Would you expect fair skinned heroes in a mythology of subsaharan Africa?

I think this answers everything. And a reasonable point it is. People need to stop trying to blend today's world with the past of another that doesn't even exist. Early Europeans saw their gods as they saw themselves (physically, that is), early Asians saw their gods as they saw themselves, and early Africans saw their gods as they saw themselves. Same goes for every other ethnic group or culture you want to mention. This was European Mythology taking place in a European land/climate. All in all, what can you expect?

[Arathorn]

Originally posted by afro-elf


What does Negroid brown mean...

...Some Negroes can pass as white...

like the guy who keeps looking at the "man in the mirror" who calls himself "Bad" but says that its ok coz he's a "Smooth Criminal", denies any relationship with "Billy Jean", thinks he can "Fly" and doesn't care if your "Black or White"


sorry...coudn't help it

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Lightice
[B]I'm afraid, that I have to say, that Tolkien was a racist as some degree. It's not about skin color. It's that people from other parts of Middle Earth are always evil at some degree. Numeronians, the Kings of Men were white skinned, as well as were elves, the most fair of races. All good guys were caucasian. No negroid heroes.

Most of the Numenoreans became evil. Many, if not most, of Gondor's people at the end of the Third Age were dark-skinned.

To suggest that all good guys were white and all bad guys were dark is completely absurd, and reveals a severe lack of knowledge regarding the book -- or prejudice.

[afro-elf]

To Arathorn


Well you know, he has been messing around with "Dirty Diana" who is a "Liberan Girl" who he thinks is " Just that Bad" and even though they are "living off the wall" and staying at the "heart break hotel" they are trying to "keep it in the closest". But I better be careful and "beat it" because he is "dangerous"

Wow that was a" thriller"

but maybe he "doesn't give a damn about us"

[Arathorn]

Hey Afro-Elf

hope he's "happy" with himself when he's taking about that "PYT" he calls "ben" ....

[emplynx]

I don't believe that any of the characters are homosexual. As someone said before, Sam has agape (unconditional) love towards Frodo and would go as far as giving his life for Frodo.
I would like think that my best friend and I have this same sort of Agape love that Jesus talked about. I think that I would give my life for his if I had to.
Some people might say that we are "gay" but we are nothing of the sort, we just have the same love for one another that Sam had for Frodo.

[afro-elf]

Arathorn

LOL

[Arathorn]

emplynx,

I agree with you on both counts. I must admit though that there are people in my area that did get ideas just because there was a dearth of male-female interaction compared to the all the strong male bonding that went on in the movie.

[bropous]

I must disagree with you, lightice, and voice my agreements with elfstone, afro-elf and Rogue Elf. This was a story written to provide England with its own mythology, and sorry, most "Negroid" individuals were pretty much absent from that island throughout most of its history. I don't think Tolkien meant in any way to cast those of greater melanin content in the dermis as all bad or evil. Also, as has been pointed out, most of the "bad guys" were of a supposedly Caucasian descent.

also, in his "Letters", Tolkien time and again takes stances which belie any implication he was being racist in any of his writings. He was born in South Africa, and knew the mindset of that land, and yet when Christopher was stationed in Sud Afrika JRR really put down the "apartheid" concept. Also, he stood up to the German publishers who wanted to publish the Hobbit in 1938 when they required him to prove he was not of Jewish descent.

I think, lightice, I understand you correctly that you are saying it was HP Lovecraft who was:

"...very, very racistic {NOTE: The term in English is "racist," but good try! }. In his opinion, jews and other "lower breed" men were good only for slavery, and couldn't think rationally at any level, and that negro-folk were just human-looking apes..."

If it is Lovecraft you mean here, I don't think I can really agree his writings proved that, but your later statement that he was just a "human-hater" is a lot more close to the mark. I think Lovecraft pretty much hated everybody. I am open to discussion on that matter, however.

As for the relationship with Sam and Frodo being in any remote way homosexual, that is absolutely off the mark {I forgot who made it}.

Good points you folks have made, whether I agree with them or no....

[Kevin McIntyre]

The racial distinctions contained within Tolkien's mythology is much different than modern or ancient views of race. There are no caucasian, Negroid, or Mongoloid races within the Circles of Ea.

Also the whole concept of race is a personal one. There are no biological races really. Physiological differences are tied to geographic locations. Things like skin tone, body shape, body hair, nose and eye shape are dictated more by the environment than anything else, and I do not mean in an evolutionary sense.

[afro-elf]

I do not mean in an evolutionary sense.

In what sense do you mean it in?

[Kevin McIntyre]

in the sense that if you take a dark skin individual from the equatorial regions of the planet and placed him in the northern (or southern climates) the environment will affect his physical appearance over time, as well as that of his off-spring (regardless of genetic mutation or drift). I.E. his skin-tone will lighten over time, chances are his children will be shorter etc. And of course the reverse will be true. Not to say a black man will look like a scandinavian after 50 years in the north. All of this varies with the individual as well. Of course over longer periods of time evolution does play its part and black populations will lose their skin tone over much longer periods of time(many generations)

[bropous]

Of course, Kevin, there is only one human race, homo sapiens sapiens, and within that race are five recognized "chromotrophs", color variations: Melanesian, Mongoloid, Negroid, Caucasian and Amerind. There is not real difference between any of the chromotrophs, only cosmetic; internal organs, appendages, all the same for all five.

Of course there doesn't seem to be this [apparent] development in Tolkien's world. No seeming separation in his known world into five chromotrophs, and the definiton of "swarthy" could either be just short-term sun-damage to skin, producing additional melanin to compensate or actual full-fledged chromotrophing carried by genes from generation to generation.

Eventually, the five chromotrophs will end up blending genetically and disappear as distinct groupings. Guess some folks will have to resort to hair color to feel superior, n'est-ce pas?

[afro-elf]

But the enviornment affecting populations IS evolution.

[Kevin McIntyre]

Originally posted by afro-elf
But the enviornment affecting populations IS evolution.

environment affecting population through generations - that is evolution

I mean environment affecting an individual.

[afro-elf]

Gotcha'