WMD search officially over in Iraq

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Ragnarok

My my, both you and Wayfarer with the temper tantrums.

Oh - I guess it's a tempertantrum to be sarcastic and point out the shortcoming of Europe. But perfectly fine to bitch and moan about the US. As I've said - a bunch of hypocrits there are here.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Combatting disinformation:

In Bosnia, there was a 3-year ethnic civil after it declared independence from Yugoslavia. External involvement was NATO peacekeeping troops, whose role was taken on by an EU force in December last year.

I think what you're constantly referring to is Kosovo, where NATO bombed Serbia in 1999 because they were shaping up to repeat the ethnic cleansing they'd attempted in Bosnia and elsewhere in the former Yugoslavia.

The situations are completely different (a country disintegrating, ethnic conflicts [which don't forget, had previously led to the outbreak of WW1], a state that was repeatedly exporting mass rape, murder and warfare in an attempt to subjugate its neighbours and systematically remove entire ethnic groups; the intervention in Kosovo involved far less input than did the one in Iraq). It betrays a lack of sophistication to simply try to argue that Kosovo had "less" of a justification for intervention than Iraq.

You can argue that Saddam had done similar things (he did invade Kuwait, and he did wage punitive war on his own people) of course, and that the invasion was justified. It's a question of when we're justified in taking the risk of starting a war.

Let me ask you Gaffer - WAS KOSOVO a preemtive war against someone who had NOT attacked NATO or it's members? As for whether it's Bosnia or Kosovo - it was all a continuation from one to the other - call it what the hell you want.

Meloshevic had never attempted to attack outside of the former Yugoslavia, there was no indiation he would. He had no weapons of mass destruction, nor did he have public plans of trying to acquire them. He never had set up meetings with a person whose stated goals are the destruction of the west and invite them to set up training camps, etc etc. So no - I don't think Kosovo was as important a war as Iraq. I still supported Kosovo for humanitarian reasons though.

BTW - I guess the EU are occupiers now. Also - I didn't give any disinformation in my statements for your INFORMATION. You just happen to disagree with me- so get off your damn high horse. In addition - Europe coudl not handle the beginning of the war. Clinton at first did not want to get involved and told europe to deal with. After much moaning and groaning from europe - the UNITED STATES led the war. The only reason why Europe is so involved now - is because Bush basically wanted our soldiers out of there. I'm sorry - we did the hard part. You now get to baby sit.

[barrelrider110]

[deleted as off topic]


Last edited by Sister Golden Hair

[Ragnarok]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Oh - I guess it's a tempertantrum to be sarcastic and point out the shortcoming of Europe. But perfectly fine to bitch and moan about the US. As I've said - a bunch of hypocrits there are here.

Whos bitching and moaning right now?... You! And if anyone knows best about bitching and moaning it would be you. By hypocrisy do you mean something like our forefathers did: One Nation Under God and All Men Created Equal while endorsing slavery? So how about everyone shut up about hypocritical this and hypocritical that, cause I refuse to believe that any of you have never said anything that wasn't hypocritical so quit making rash judgments as if you are superior to everyone else. I could easily deconstruct your political beliefs, ideas or whatever and find hypocrisy as well.

[Blackheart]

No weapons of mass destruction. I can't say I'm terribly surprised. It's old news. You kind of knew this was going to happen after they failed to turn up anything substantial in the first couple of months. This is just the official stamp on the dead news story...

What pains me is the recent CIA note that states Iraq is now shaping up to BECOME the largest source of terrorists and terrorist training networks in the world, because of the chaos and confusion there. And is likely to remain so for quite some time.

There is an old adage. If I'm not part of the solution, I'm part of the problem... it seems applicable in this instance. I've never been terribly supportive of isolationist policies... But I'm starting to wonder if there's not something to be said for them.

If we're not screwing things up somewhere, we're getting them right somewhere else, and still catching hell for it. Perhaps we'd do just as much good in the world by sticking our hands in our pockets. At least until we know for sure that our actions are going to be benficial...

Of course then everyone would blame us for not doing something early enough to avoid catastrophy...

If I had to venture a guess, I'd say we were victims of our own hubris. We think we can do anything, and solve any problem. People get angry when we don't try, because some of them actually believe that, or at least want to believe it.

And if we do try to fix something, then people get angry because:
a) We underestimated the problem and overestimated our capability.
b) We applied our own vision of what "fixed" means.
c) You can't make everyone happy, no matter how hard you try.
d) all of the above.

On the odd chance that everything does go perfectly, no one really notices. Our idea (hubris) that we are capable of fixing any problem just reinforces the idea that it's business as usual.

Perhaps a little humilty might help...

[Starr Polish]

Originally Posted by Ragnarok

Whos bitching and moaning right now?... You! And if anyone knows best about bitching and moaning it would be you. By hypocrisy do you mean something like our forefathers did: One Nation Under God and All Men Created Equal while endorsing slavery? So how about everyone shut up about hypocritical this and hypocritical that, cause I refuse to believe that any of you have never said anything that wasn't hypocritical so quit making rash judgments as if you are superior to everyone else. I could easily deconstruct your political beliefs, ideas or whatever and find hypocrisy as well.

Yes, because we all know that we all endorse everything our forefather's did.

This is a bitching and moaning thread, and everyone in it is basically doing it. Are the only people allowed to bitch and moan those who agree with you, Ragnorak? I generally do NOT agree with JD, but you are being hypocritical.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Ragnarok

Whos bitching and moaning right now?... You! And if anyone knows best about bitching and moaning it would be you. By hypocrisy do you mean something like our forefathers did: One Nation Under God and All Men Created Equal while endorsing slavery? So how about everyone shut up about hypocritical this and hypocritical that, cause I refuse to believe that any of you have never said anything that wasn't hypocritical so quit making rash judgments as if you are superior to everyone else. I could easily deconstruct your political beliefs, ideas or whatever and find hypocrisy as well.

You're the one that is always acting superior. Such as now. YOu have been hypocritical during this debate.

As for the founding fathers - you try to judge the morals of the past on the morals of today. Which is completely ignorant of history. Many did - including Jefferson - want slavery eliminated. The goal was to create a nation though - and in order to do so - they needed the south. At that time, whether you agree with it or not - slaves were NOT considered people, but property.And as for ENDORSING slavery - that is the furthest thing from the truth - most did not endorse slavery. But hey - it's best to look at it as a generalization right?

As for whose bitching and moaning - again it's you. You're whole tiatribe here is rather hilarious. You talk about me bitching and moaning and telling people to shut up - and why don't you listen yourself.

Hilarious - I just can't stop laughing at the moment at your post.

[Ragnarok]

Originally Posted by Starr Polish

Yes, because we all know that we all endorse everything our forefather's did.

This is a bitching and moaning thread, and everyone in it is basically doing it. Are the only people allowed to bitch and moan those who agree with you, Ragnorak? I generally do NOT agree with JD, but you are being hypocritical.

Nope, this thread was talk about about President Bush invading Iraq on false inofrmation, however it seems some people in this thread have problems with self-control and feel the need to get rude, sarcastic and even resort to child name calling directed towards me. I was not bitching and moaning, I was simply stating that no one seems to give a crap that one of his MAJOR claims for starting the war was completely false. However, I wanted to hear people's opinion on that rather than telling me how they are disgusted with me or how I'm dishonest, hypocritical for what I believe. Please indicate in my original post where I was being hypocritical.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

What pains me is the recent CIA note that states Iraq is now shaping up to BECOME the largest source of terrorists and terrorist training networks in the world, because of the chaos and confusion there. And is likely to remain so for quite some time.

The CIA report does not say that. It says that it can go either way.

If I had to venture a guess, I'd say we were victims of our own hubris. We think we can do anything, and solve any problem. People get angry when we don't try, because some of them actually believe that, or at least want to believe it.

No - it's more of a damned if you do - damned if you don't situation. It doesn't matter what we do - we'll get blamed and bitched at.

As for us believing we can fix every problem - I think we can. It may take a lot of hard work - but at least we don't sit around with our fingers up our ass like Europe does. The world in my opinion is a far better place than it was 50 years ago - even with the problems we face today. We will eventually overcome these problems, but it'll take time and hard work and comittment.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Administrative note- Chill out all of you, or this thread will be closed.

[Ragnarok]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

You're the one that is always acting superior. Such as now. YOu have been hypocritical during this debate.

As for the founding fathers - you try to judge the morals of the past on the morals of today. Which is completely ignorant of history. Many did - including Jefferson - want slavery eliminated. The goal was to create a nation though - and in order to do so - they needed the south. At that time, whether you agree with it or not - slaves were NOT considered people, but property.And as for ENDORSING slavery - that is the furthest thing from the truth - most did not endorse slavery. But hey - it's best to look at it as a generalization right?

As for whose bitching and moaning - again it's you. You're whole tiatribe here is rather hilarious. You talk about me bitching and moaning and telling people to shut up - and why don't you listen yourself.

Hilarious - I just can't stop laughing at the moment at your post.

Thats great , ever since I've been here at the moot your posts were always funny and amusing to see you get worked up defending America and to see you bitch and moan at the people who bash America.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Ragnarok

Nope, this thread was talk about about President Bush invading Iraq on false inofrmation, however it seems some people in this thread have problems with self-control and feel the need to get rude, sarcastic and even resort to child name calling directed towards me.

Childish name calling directed at you? Where the hell was that?

As for the information you refer to - you again act as if Bush was supposed miraculously know that ALL the world's information was incorrect. That's amazing.

I was not bitching and moaning, I was simply stating that no one seems to give a crap that one of his MAJOR claims for starting the war was completely false.

The problem with your statement here - is that it wasn't COMPLETELY false. Were there WMD found - no, but he had everyone in place to start up the operation as soon as sanctions were lifted. You want to look at it with 20/20. How long would sanctions have stayed in place? France was already arguing for them to be lifted. it was within a year they would have crumbled. As it was he was making Billions in the oil for food scandal. I see you don't have much to say about that - but then again - that isn't about Bush lying - that's about your precious UN. God forbid we should say anything bad about that holier than thou establishment.

However, I wanted to hear people's opinion on that rather than telling me how they are disgusted with me or how I'm dishonest, hypocritical for what I believe. Please indicate in my original post where I was being hypocritical.

Sorry - I didn't know there were rules set up on what you can talk about on the board like that. You have no control over what I say or how I feel. And no matter what - I will state my opinion - whether you like it or not, whether you only want to restrict the thread to your point of view.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Ragnarok

Thats great , ever since I've been here at the moot your posts were always funny and amusing to see you get worked up defending America and to see you bitch and moan at the people who bash America.

That's good. I'm glad. The only reason why I feel the need to defend America - is because the only thing that is acceptable to bash here is America and Americans - oh - and Republicans. If you bash Europe or say anything against europe - it's called generalizing or being just plain ignorant. But it's perfectly fine to bash america. Give me a break - as if I care what the hell you think.

[Ragnarok]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Childish name calling directed at you? Where the hell was that?

That part was deleted by an Admin.

Sorry - I didn't know there were rules set up on what you can talk about on the board like that. You have no control over what I say or how I feel. And no matter what - I will state my opinion - whether you like it or not, whether you only want to restrict the thread to your point of view.

First off, I could don't give a crap what you think or what you think of me. I know I have no control as to what you say or feel, that is quite obvious. However, the way this thread is going is far from what I wanted.

[Sister Golden Hair]

People need to remember that believing there were WMD in Iraq was not just limited to the US. How many times did the UN weopans inspectors go in and then were tossed out? Over and over again.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Ragnarok

I know I have no control as to what you say or feel, that is quite obvious. However, the way this thread is going is far from what I wanted.

You have no control over where a thread goes - other than the topic at hand. What - you think you can only have people who support your views discussing this. here okay....

Oh yes Ragnarok - I completely agree with you. The war was completely wrong and wee were lied to and bush should be impeached.

feel better now? is that what you were after? :P yeah - right. Talk about a lack of freedom of speech.

[Ragnarok]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

You have no control over where a thread goes - other than the topic at hand. What - you think you can only have people who support your views discussing this. here okay....

Oh yes Ragnarok - I completely agree with you. The war was completely wrong and wee were lied to and bush should be impeached.

feel better now? is that what you were after? :P yeah - right. Talk about a lack of freedom of speech.

No, where did I say you have to agree with me , instead of discussing the topic, everyone wants to attack my opinion. Hey, I have no problem if you disagree with me however people here are getting very rude. Heres an ideas for you, whatever happened to tolerance? If you can't handle someones opinion without getting rude, sarcastic or hostile as so many have done within this thread then you thats your own problem.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Ragnarok

No, where did I say you have to agree with me , instead of discussing the topic, everyone wants to attack my opinion.

Well up above you said you were upset that no one found the fact that no WMD was found in iraq to be disturbing. You have been saying how this thread isn't going in the "direction" you wanted it to go in. I'm not sure what you wanted. You started a political thread. And your first post was completely loaded with erroneouos liberal mouthpiece crap. Nes for you - Bush did not lie - he had the SAME intelligence that the rest of the world had.

Hey, I have no problem if you disagree with me however people here are getting very rude. Heres an ideas for you, whatever happened to tolerance?

I don't know - what has happened to tolerance? You don't show tolerance to people who disagree with you - so why should you expect it? I saw that Wayfarer had something edited out - but I didn't get to see it - nor does that have anythign to do with me. That seems to be your problem though is whatever was said there.

If you can't handle someones opinion without getting rude, sarcastic or hostile as so many have done within this thread then you thats your own problem.

You share that problem of being sarcastic, hostile and rude also. See that's what hypocritical means. I perfectly agree - I'm being sarcastic and I'm not sorry for it.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Oh yes Ragnarok - I completely agree with you. The war was completely wrong and wee were lied to and bush should be impeached.

He he. Just wanted to see that in a quote. Carry on...

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

He he. Just wanted to see that in a quote. Carry on...

Yeah - and here's the foot note - it was complete sarcasm.