Good Orcs?

[Sister Golden Hair]

CT says: it is as it appears, to be his father's final view on the matter. Orcs came from Men.

The essay also says that the appearence of Orcs would not occur until Men awoke.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

And if JRR said it then it's true.

[Arien the Maia]

didn't Tolkien also change his mind on when Men awoke? that it wasn't with the first rising Sun as is stated in the Sil?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Arien the Maia

didn't Tolkien also change his mind on when Men awoke? that it wasn't with the first rising Sun as is stated in the Sil?

Not sure on that one. I'll try to see what I can find on it.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

What your saying may be true SGH. It is a possibility, there is no doubt about that. I just don't think that it is Fact. It was the last Tolkien wrote on the matter but he never finished more than half his work. It is not fact because a portion of Tolkiens words were published. It is a possibility, not fact. Perhaps that is understandable. And that is all I am saying.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Fair enough Halbarad.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

haha, im not trying to argue your wrong after all. Although lets us remember, this thread is about good orcs existing? So... how about we answer that again... Do good orcs exist in the third age?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Do good orcs exist in the third age?

NO!

[Attalus]

There is no final result to this debate, as JRRT obviously was of several minds on it. At one time he did think of them as soulless automata, but recanted on that. The quote from the Sil (the published Silmarillion or "'77" as it is known dismissively in some quarters) is not Canon, either. As SGH says, that was JRRT's final word on the subject, but he was appalled at how much havoc that would work on the carefully-crafted prehistory and he never made the attempt to reconcile the two ideas. I would have been perfectly happy with soulless automata, myself.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

As for the origin of Orcs: Tolkien says they came from Men and that was his final word on it. We can not change his ideas or his story nomatter how much we don't agree with his changes.

The problem with Tolkien's final word is that it is wholly inconsistent with the Middle-earth mythology. It is not enough that this was Tolkien's final word on the matter. It must also be his final word within the scope of the published mythology, and that it is not.

Technically, the origin of Orcs is never explained by Tolkien within the scope of the published mythology. Even if we include the published Silmarillion (which is itself incompatible with the published mythology), there remains considerable ambiguity.

And I think that any question of whether Orcs are good must also be accompanied by the questions "are Men evil" and "are Elves evil"?

Good and evil in Tolkien are not easy to discern from one another, except at their very extremes. We know for sure that Manwe is good and that Melkor is evil.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

The problem with Tolkien's final word is that it is wholly inconsistent with the Middle-earth mythology. It is not enough that this was Tolkien's final word on the matter. It must also be his final word within the scope of the published mythology, and that it is not.

Technically, the origin of Orcs is never explained by Tolkien within the scope of the published mythology. Even if we include the published Silmarillion (which is itself incompatible with the published mythology), there remains considerable ambiguity.

And I think that any question of whether Orcs are good must also be accompanied by the questions "are Men evil" and "are Elves evil"?

Good and evil in Tolkien are not easy to discern from one another, except at their very extremes. We know for sure that Manwe is good and that Melkor is evil.

So, because C.T. says: "this is my father's final word on it, as it appears," just means that this is the last idea to a change he may have been considering, but didn't incorporate into the mythology. Since LotRs is really the only completed published work on ME by JRRT, then it means that Orcs came from Elves?

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

So, because C.T. says: "this is my father's final word on it, as it appears," just means that this is the last idea to a change he may have been considering, but didn't incorporate into the mythology. Since LotRs is really the only completed published work on ME by JRRT, then it means that Orcs came from Elves?

No. I think it means the question is unanswerable within the context of the published mythology.

Remember that the Orc essays are collected in "Myths Transformed", the section where Christopher documents the final evolution of his father's work toward what would have become a new mythology: no Two Trees, Orcs from Men, Earth much more ancient and scientifically faithful to true geologic history, and so forth.

We have gleaned all sorts of insights from the notes and essays in that section, but a lot of the material is simply inconsistent with what was published in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.

It's difficult enough to keep The Silmarillion loosely attached to the primary mythology because of Christopher's additions, corrections, and retractions.

Adding all these post-publication notes and essays into the mix (and that goes for a lot of the material published in The Peoples of Middle-earth) just makes it more difficult to juggle the facts.

We are constantly building a house of cards from all these materials.

[me9996]

I think it would have to be a new breed (Or an ealry failed atemt).
But I think It is posable (After all, if a wizzard can swich sides why not an orc?)


From me9996 who is being chased be orcs!

[Beregond]

I don't think that you can get good orcs because they were created as evil. I also don't believe you get evil hobbits unless like gollum they are somehow corrupted

[Blackheart]

I think I have to agree. Within Tolkein's actual published material you can't make a definitive decision of what original stock orcs were bred from. As he often said, his characters don't know everything. (Which I think is one of his ways of glossing over inconsistencies)

That being said, I'm pretty sure Tolkein would have wanted it to be men, because he kept on with the themes of elevating those pansy-arsed elves to incorruptable status, and he had definate issues with industrialization and war, which are attributes of "men"... and the orcs certainly represent those attributes in the LOTR...

Maybe if he'd lived another 40 years he might have gotten his backstory straight.

You could make a convincing case for either elves or men, depending on how you want to view the "evidence"...

I just lump it all together and say they were bred from both. After all there's no difference in the DNA, just in the levels of "spiritual being"... It's no great difficulty to convince an orc, or pre-orc even, to nab some pretty elvish booty... It's what you do with the offspring that makes a breeding program a breeding program.

[ItalianLegolas]

maybe if you bred orcs with men or elves for many, many, many generations you could get a 'good orc', but that would be a genuinely stupid idea

[Lenya]

I deffinately do not think that you will ever find a good orc. There's no hope for them.

[me9996]

Originally Posted by ItalianLegolas

maybe if you bred orcs with men or elves for many, many, many generations you could get a 'good orc', but that would be a genuinely stupid idea

You're right about the first part (even though you'd get uruk-hai part way trough) but I don't agree on the 2nd. A good orc would only be of use in wartime (If they where any use ) but it would have to be a pletifill land to hold all thoghs good orcs (An orc has an exensive reporduction rate) so I gess you're right that no one in middle earth would bread good orcs.

(Enless it was a very long war and more solders were need )

[Lenya]

And who would they use as breeding stock? And what would they do with all the in between mutants? Very very very bad idee.

[Embladyne]

I agree with Blackheart that it makes the most sense to say that orcs were bred from both humans and elves because of the two being the same genetically. In that light, Tolkien's ideas of the pureness of elves, the failings of humans, and the evil of orcs makes the most sense to me. Because they all come from the same source, genetically, it is the differences in spirit that make the differences in race. I would bet that orcs may not be that genetically different from elves or humans, but instead, very spiritually different.