The trouble with fantasy...

[Raistlin]

i loved dune and how it buts things together. i have seen a few connections with movies and different books (how they can tie together) the best example is with the termanator series, the matrix and dune. i can't believe some one can't see the connection with it

[Melko Belcha]

Fantasy can get repetitive, especialy Epic Fantasy, it is either a Tolkien clone are tries to hard not to be like Tolkien. The only series that have stood out to me as being original is A Song of Ice and Fire by George RR Martin and Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn by Tad Williams. Both of these series I love as much as Tolkien, but they are very different from his work.

[Azhei]

it can get repetitive at times but over all it is interesting if you want to get into repetion go into romance novels

[goldiegollum]

I was skimming through this and wondered about the names part. exactly what is a silly name and do you have to make up an entire language to have the authority to name people anything beyond "sarah" or "Katherine", or other such names of today? If so that would make me (as an author) sad. Ex: Is Mira a silly name, or Tiskrat?

[Wayfarer]

Well, I'm not sure what IP means about silly names. After all, Tolkien himself did start off by using things that he thought sounded nice, and then assigned meanings from there.

One of the things that does annoy me is how many authors snitch bits of Tolkein languages for use in names and never give credit to the author of said languages...

[Bilbo]

I hate to sound like a critic, but there are somethings that other authors have done that Tolkein has not.
They have created characters you can relate to!
In other Sci-Fi books, especially Terry Pratchet, I can find a certain link with the characters. In the Tolkein books none of the characters can I relate to. YEs they have presonality, yes they have hobbies and likes, but they don't seem to come across what happens to us on a daily basis, like embarrassment, humor and dread.
Tolkein has good stroy lines, but he writes it from a perspective where you can't understand what the characters feel. Exactly what kind of dread does going into Moria give Gandalf? Why does Sam want to go into Mordor alone?
Other authors put in feelings and thoughts, but Tolkein writes like its a bible. Good story, but no personalities.

[brownjenkins]

originality is rare, in any genre... and everyone borrows a lot, especially from the classics (of which i believe tolkien is one)... just look at how much shakespeare has inspired... and even some of his themes came from older sources

some of the lesser-known original fantasy novels i have read and enjoyed:

Roger Zelazny (not the most talented author in terms of pure writing talent, but full of original concepts):

first set of Amber Chronicles (his much later second series was kind of lacking)

Jack of Shadows (a kind of sci-fi/fantasy crossover... interesting because the hero is basically an evil person, yet hard to not love)

Lord of Light (one of the few fantasy books that really touches upon religious beliefs)

Stephen Donaldson:

The Mirror of Her Dreams and A Man Rides Through (very original ideas and much lighter than his covenant series)

i also enjoy H.P. Lovecraft and Anne Rice, both of which i would consider "fantasy" authors

gg - i knew a mira and tiskrat is a perfectly fine name, though it makes me think of something that waits under your bed till the lights are out

[galadriel]

Originally posted by Bilbo
I hate to sound like a critic, but there are somethings that other authors have done that Tolkein has not.
They have created characters you can relate to!
In other Sci-Fi books, especially Terry Pratchet, I can find a certain link with the characters. In the Tolkein books none of the characters can I relate to. YEs they have presonality, yes they have hobbies and likes, but they don't seem to come across what happens to us on a daily basis, like embarrassment, humor and dread.
Tolkein has good stroy lines, but he writes it from a perspective where you can't understand what the characters feel. Exactly what kind of dread does going into Moria give Gandalf? Why does Sam want to go into Mordor alone?
Other authors put in feelings and thoughts, but Tolkein writes like its a bible. Good story, but no personalities.

I've heard lots of people complain about that. I agree that Tolkien is not a psychological book. All of his characters are psychologically consistent and believable, but we rarely get to see into the very deepest workings of their minds.

Instead, we get themes. For me, the enormous, universal, and very poignant (and very human) themes contained in Tolkien's works make up for a lack of strong psychology. The sadness of the Elves, the greed of Mordor, and the tenacity of Men all create situations that are as captivating as characters, and help us to picture mental processes that Tolkien does not explicitly state. Instead of falling in love with a character, we fall in love with a world.

Of course, this is a matter of taste. Some people need the strong personal connection to buy into a novel. Others are bored by psychology and prefer widescale drama. I just happen to like both.

[Melko Belcha]

Originally posted by Bilbo
I hate to sound like a critic, but there are somethings that other authors have done that Tolkein has not.
They have created characters you can relate to!
In other Sci-Fi books, especially Terry Pratchet, I can find a certain link with the characters. In the Tolkein books none of the characters can I relate to. YEs they have presonality, yes they have hobbies and likes, but they don't seem to come across what happens to us on a daily basis, like embarrassment, humor and dread.
Tolkein has good stroy lines, but he writes it from a perspective where you can't understand what the characters feel. Exactly what kind of dread does going into Moria give Gandalf? Why does Sam want to go into Mordor alone?
Other authors put in feelings and thoughts, but Tolkein writes like its a bible. Good story, but no personalities.

I understand what you are saying, but for me it is different. I like not getting into the characters heads because it allows your imagination to form what they are thinking. In too many books the thoughts of the main character is to in depth and there is almost nothing that you do not know about the character, and if you do not like the character then it makes it hard to get into the story, no matter how good the story is.

It's all a matter of personal taste, but for me the less I know about what is going on inside the mind of the character the more my imagination is allowed to roam free. Plus it allows people to see the characters in there own way, other then the author telling you what the character thinks in every situation, it allows you to imagine what the character is thinking, which might be completely different then what I am thinking, and we both finish the story with a different impression of the characters in our heads.

[Raistlin]

you have all made valid points but i think i will have to go with whoever said something about the personal connection.

i have to have that or else the book is kinda dead to

[Attalus]

I think any genre which is very popular, like Fantasy is now, will attract different levels of talent. Mystery stories are no different: a few good ones, lots of dreck.

[Attalus]

Oh, and I forgot that there are quite a few devotees of G.R.R. Martin fans that insist that his stuff is quite good. Never could get into it, myself. Gordon Dickson's Dragon Knight books are still being written and are quite original and well-written, IMHO. The latest is The Dragon and the Fair Maid of Kent.

[Bilbo]

I notice that nobody has called me a critic yet.

The main problem that I was trying to convey is that Tolkein is more like an atheist bible than an actual story. In the bible the true feelings of the people involved are never mentioned, but evry important part of their daily lives is.
The Silmarilion is the best example of this. It starts with the creation of Middle Earth, like the old testiment. It is not a story as such, but a recollection of an event.
The Tolkein books are also like the bible, in that they are believable, but do not seem like real life. Nobody ever knew how Moses felt when he recieved the Ten Commandments. Our belief tells us that it happened, but when we compare it to real-life, it doesn't seem real.
I don't want to sound like a non-religious person, because I'm not. I am just mentioning that Tolkein's books should be respected like the Holy Bible, but the problem is that there is going to be LOADS of arguements over it.

[brownjenkins]

Bilbo <--- tolkien critic!!!

is that better

you have a good point though, the silmarillion is especially biblical, or maybe mythical, like the bible, the eddas, the oddessy, etc.

i would argue the LoTR is actually a lot more personal, we see a lot about the characters motivations, feelings and personalities outside of the quest... i think the problem some may have is that it is much more "G-rated" as opposed to something like G.R.R. Martin's work, but i don't think this lack of a dark side in every good character makes it less real... at least i hope not

[Anglorfin]

Originally posted by Bilbo

I don't want to sound like a non-religious person, because I'm not. I am just mentioning that Tolkein's books should be respected like the Holy Bible, but the problem is that there is going to be LOADS of arguements over it.

Hahahaha I like that. "Respected like the Bible".

Anyway, I know where you are coming from. Just as long as there are two human beings to share their opinions, they will disagree about something. But I think part of the fun of the Tolkien story and why his characters are strangely endearing is the anonimity of their actual thoughts. We get strong feelings about a character's motives even though Tolkien never delves into their mind for a first person perspective. A good example would be Boromir. When we read about him we are looking at him through the eyes of one of the other members of the Fellowship, not through his own. And that is enough to put us on the same level as other characters in that world, which means that we will be wary of Boromir but for the moment still trust him as a naturally good ally.

[Human#3.141592653]

Every one has read their fair share of bad fiction out there; it is, sadly, completely unavoidable. You go into your local book boutique and pick up a copy of randomly recommended text, go home, get comfy, and promptly go into the bathroom to vomit.

Never fear though! There are some useful uses for bad fiction and here are just a few:

Resale! A bad book once bought and thumbed is never worth the price you paid, however. Many a independent book retail outlet will buy your old copy for a fraction of the cost or give you store credit. Plus, this little excursion gets you up and out of the house and into yet another book store and all the fragrant odors there of.

Donations! Failing to be able to resell your bad book, you could always give it away, as in for free! There are many charities out there that accept book donations, such as the Fund for Armless Legless Goatless Orphans of Peru or the blind.

Kindling! If your bad book is returned by the Orphans of Peru, do not be discouraged. Simply get creative! What's better than a roaring fire on the hearth in the middle of winter? and your bad book can add to the fun! Share some hot cocoa with loved one while watching the pages turn black and peel away. It's functionality and revenge all in one!

Door stop! If your bad fiction refuses to burn try using the stubborn novella, use it to prop open a door, level out a table leg or, my personal favourite, a paperweight! As a paperweight, you can spend hours of fun doodling mustaches and "mother" tattoo’s on the busty elvish princesses and ill-tempered dragons.

[ArwenEvenstar]

I noticed that in a book a got for Christmas (I think it's called Stronghold by Melanie Rawn) that there is a actually a guy called Rohan and a place called Gilad. It's not a bad read but that really bugs me! G.R.R. Martin is a good example of originality and intelligence (except for his eating habits, the guy is HUGE!) in writing, also Terry Pratchett, I've only read three of the Discworld books but he's one of my favourite authors!

[Jabberwock]

I've been burned out on fantasy before. It sucks. You have to find a way to inject the wonder back into the literature. I found the best way to do that is to quit looking forward to the next big writer or next big series, and take the road not often traveled by fantasy fanatics. Stop reading epics. Stop reading authors who are popular now. Go to used book stores and pick up tons of cheap and moldy old fantasy like Lord Dunsany. Get his short story collections, like the Pegana stuff. Stories like Sword of Welleran and Fortress Unvanquishable Save for Sacnoth are really inspiring, in a fantasy sense, and filled with that wonder we all want in our books. Read them. He and people like William Morris, J B Cable, and E R R Eddison created the genre and were amazing writers. Dunsany, though his longer fiction is kind of lacking, could tell a tale with language that simply amazed. Read folklore too. Do a little tour of the history of fantasy that existed before Tolkien. The worst that will happen is that you'll learn something of where the genre came from. Old writers of fantasy, particularly their shorter works rejuvenate me. Wading through 6000 pages of a modern fantasy epic, only to discover its not over, should burn a person out. Think of the number of shorter fantasy books and stories you can read in that space of time. I guarantee you'll end up with a feeling of satisfaction, rather than a feeling of frustrated anticipation which is so common today.

[brownjenkins]

i'm a huge fan of folklore and mythology... most people don't realize how much there is out there besides the classic greek/roman/egyptian thing

almost every society that has ever existed has a wealth of "fantasy"... it's the oldest form of storytelling know to humanity

[Jabberwock]

Word BrownJenkins!