How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder? - crazy ideas

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

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Sauron lost the Ring when Isildur cut it from his broken body. An interesting question might be: if Isildur had left the Ring on Sauron and his body was not destroyed, would he have revived?
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I DEFINITELY think so.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

(Sorry for the very long, wandering post.)

Not all who wander are lost - thanks for taking the time to post that.

[Gordis]

Thanks for your excellent post, Alcuin.

It so happened that I posted my analysis of the Weathertop episode on another forum as well, and got another interesting reply from Alcuin, pointing out the importance of destruction of the Barrow-Wight. I think I shall post my reply here as well, to share it with the Mooters.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The only point that might remain concerns Bombadil and the destruction of the barrow-wight. If the Ringwraiths knew about the end of the barrow-wight but not about Bombadil, then it seems to me that the last pieces are in place.

Tolkien drew up “notes recounting in detail the movements of the Black Riders in the Shire�, and that “the Black Captain established a camp at Andrath, where the Greenway passed in a narrow defile between the Barrow-downs and the South Downs,� from which “he … visited the Barrow-downs… and the Barrow-wights were roused…� Was he aware of the destruction of the wight and its barrow? If he were, think about who could have done this! Even Elrond’s councilors forgot about Bombadil: did the Witch-king remember Bombadil? If he did not, this would be a matter of tremendous concern – an outright disaster – because from his standpoint, the halflings somehow destroyed the Barrow-wight and seized the enchanted Dúnedain blades in the tomb. How could they do that without using the Ring? It would also imply that the halflings recognized the blades for the immensely powerful weapons they were. From this perspective, the Nazgûl had a lot to fear!

You are dead right. I have not thought about the impact of the Wight's destruction on the nazgul.

Indeed, the nazgul likely learned about the demise of the Wight even before they saw the blade. According to the notes on the movements of the Black riders in HOME VII "The Treason of Isengard", the Riders, who attacked Crickhollow while hobbits were at Bree (the night after the destruction of the wight), returned to the Witch-King at Andrath to report, thus likely passing right through the fields of barrows. It is strange if they hadn't heard the recent news from the Wight's bereaved colleagues .

So likely, at Andrath, the Witch-King learned from his underlings not only about their failure at Crickhollow and at Bree, but also that a Wight was destroyed and some perilous blades had gone missing. That could explain the Witch-Kings great wrath upon hearing the reports even better.

Whom could the nazgul suspect? Tom (if they ever heard of him), Gandalf (I don't think they could have been quite sure of the wizard's whereabouts), some Elves (but the appearance of, especially, Calaquendi Elves, at the Barrows at the crucial moment would have been too great a coincidence) or the hobbit with the Ring.

Did the Witch-King know (about) Tom? There was heavy fighting around Tyrn Gorthad and the old Forest back in TA 1409.

App. A: A great host came out of Angmar in 1409, and crossing the river entered Cardolan and surrounded Weathertop. The Dúnedain were defeated and Arveleg was slain. ... Cardolan was ravaged. Araphor son of Arveleg was not yet full-grown, but he was valiant, and with aid from CÃ*rdan he repelled the enemy from Fornost and the North Downs. A remnant of the faithful among the Dúnedain of Cardolan also held out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns), or took refuge in the Forest behind.

But it doesn't seem that Tom took any active part in it. He is not mentioned in any chronicle. It seems he remained an aggrieved spectator, watching men killing men on his lands. On the other hand, we have no data, that the Witch-King personally commanded the assault on Tyrn Gorthad. More likely, he was intent on Amon-Sul and then on Fornost (I personally think he mostly wanted to get the palantiri ).

Now, in September 3018, the Witch-King himself visited Tom's lands and not only had "a cup of tea " with the Wights, but also weaved some spells to arouse all evil things in the Old Forest (like Old Man Willow). It doesn't seem that the WK was hampered by Tom in any way, while trespassing.

So, I believe, the WK didn't know about Tom.

I don't think the nazgul suspected the hobbits of killing the Wight before they saw the blade in Frodo's hand. Most likely they suspected Gandalf. They could have become quite sure when they saw the wizard at Weathertop.

Otherwise, the WK would have been vary of the hobbits from the start - he would not have left 2 of the 5 nazgul standing idle at the lip of the dell... But once the nazgul saw the blade, the realization that it was the Ringbearer who destroyed the Wight and plundered the Barrow hit them.

They must have realized that, wielding the Ring, even a hobbit could possibly order a wight to depart. But that meant that the hobbit had much more willpower that the nazgul had previously thought. If the hobbit successfully wielded the Ring against the Wight, then the hobbit COULD try to use the Ring against the nazgul themselves ( like the situation described in the letter 246 ) - a very difficult and unpleasant situation for the nazgul.

The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the Eight might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades. The man's weakness was that he did not know how to use his weapon yet; and he was by temperament and training averse to violence. Their weakness that the man's weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility. I think they would have shown 'servility'. They would have greeted Frodo as 'Lord'. ... they would simply have waited. Until Sauron himself came.

But, at Weathertop, could they have waited till Sauron himself came? Of course not. So they had to act - and act swiftly.

Perhaps that was part of the reason why the Witch-King attacked immediately - nor to leave Frodo time to claim the Ring for his own and to start issuing orders to the Ringwraiths?

[CAB]

I have to admit, after you consider the Nazguls’ possible suspicions concerning the blades and the wight, the pieces start to fall into place. I guess there is a good answer to this question after all. Very well done Gordis and Alcuin.

[jammi567]

wow *left speechless with mouth hanging open*.

[Butterbeer]

... ENTER ... the Dentist ...

[Landroval]

If the Ringwraiths knew ... not about Bombadil

I find that really hard to believe

Originally Posted by Council of Elrond, FotR

But I had forgotten Bombadil, if indeed this is still the same that walked the woods and hills long ago, and even then was older than the old. That was not then his name. Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless. But many another name he has since been given by other folk: Forn by the Dwarves, Orald by Northern Men, and other names beside.

Though, as the saying goes, I like the way you think

[jammi567]

I agree because if someone is immortal, they have many names throughout the age, and you live near the m for hundreds of years, how can you not know them?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I find that really hard to believe

Though, as the saying goes, I like the way you think

Thanks.

We can't be sure about that of course.

Still let us consider the possibility that the Witch-King HAD heard of some strange being living in the Old Forest.

He had his own agents nearby - the Wights - so they might have reported his existence.

But Tom has never molested a wight before, it seems - he let them live on his lands and harass the trespassers (remember terrible stories about the Wights that were told even in the Shire?). So, most probably, the WK assumed that Orald (or Forn or Tom or what-is-his-name-again?) had no power over the Wights.

So, when a wight was suddenly destroyed, the WK suspected not Tom, their neutral neighbour, but someone else - Gandalf the Maia or Baggins the Ringbearer.

[Landroval]

He had his own agents nearby - the Wights - so they might have reported his existence.

All races are aware of him, _northmen_ included. He wasn't that far from the events involving the witch-king and the northern kingdoms - the chief nazgul most likely knew of him before there were any barrow wights.

So, when a wight was suddenly destroyed, the WK suspected not Tom, their neutral neighbour, but someone else - Gandalf the Maia or Baggins the Ringbearer.

There is no sign about the hobbit ringbearer having any particular power; the w-k most likely met Gollum in person and saw that a hobbit having the ring for 4 centuries is no biggie.

The fact that no evil can cross Tom's house must have been known for a long time - along with his power over the wood (I doubt Goldberrry calls him Master for nothing). He is probably the oldest being, and that most likely imply in itself a good deal of magic power. On the other hand, hobbits, like all Men, lack any magical powers:

Originally Posted by Letter #155

Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such. Aragorn's 'healing' might be regarded as 'magical', or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while A. is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Luthien'.

[Also, it is to be noted that there must have been other wights around, who could have told the witch-king about what happened; after all, Tom's enchantings are sure to be felt around. [Even the departed wight could have informed the w-k].]

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

But Tom has never molested a wight before, it seems - he let them live on his lands and harass the trespassers (remember terrible stories about the Wights that were told even in the Shire?). So, most probably, the WK assumed that Orald (or Forn or Tom or what-is-his-name-again?) had no power over the Wights.

I think it is a bit of an undue assumption to say that Tom never defeated a wight before. Maybe, maybe not. Also, like Landroval said, just the location of Bombadil’s house may have suggested to the Nazgul that Tom had the power to deal with wights and other evil powers.

Originally Posted by Gordis

So, when a wight was suddenly destroyed, the WK suspected not Tom, their neutral neighbour, but someone else - Gandalf the Maia or Baggins the Ringbearer.

I think you are right. Tom doesn’t seem to generally take a very active role. I don’t think the Witch King would very quickly suspect Tom’s involvement. Of course, there is the possibility, as Landroval suggested, that if the Nazgul heard about the wight’s defeat, that they got the whole story, and knew of Bombadil’s involvement. Considering that it fits better with this theory, I prefer the idea that they either heard only rumors (so to speak) or nothing concerning the end of the wight.

Originally Posted by Landroval

There is no sign about the hobbit ringbearer having any particular power; the w-k most likely met Gollum in person and saw that a hobbit having the ring for 4 centuries is no biggie.

On the other hand, hobbits, like all Men, lack any magical powers:

If anything, this is more reason for the Nazgul to be startled on Weathertop. Frodo should be helpless, but there he is, having seemingly used the Ring to defeat a wight and arm himself with an “anti-Nazgul� blade. It seems that this was enough to make them want to regroup, even while knowing that Gandalf was in the area.

Kind of, sort of related question: Apparently the art of making “anti-Nazgul� blades was lost or abandoned. Could this be due to the (possibly) well known prophesy about the Witch King’s defeat? If a Man couldn’t kill him, and the swords are made for Men, why continue to make the swords?

[Landroval]

Of course, there is the possibility, as Landroval suggested, that if the Nazgul heard about the wight’s defeat, that they got the whole story, and knew of Bombadil’s involvement.

Most likely so; the analysis that Gordis and Alcuin did failed to mention one thing:

Originally Posted by The hunt for the ring, UT

the Barrow-wights were roused, and all things of evil spirit, hostile to Elves and Men, were on the watch with malice in the Old Forest and on the Barrow-downs.

with all those spies around, the nazgul ought to have been informed on what happened.

Frodo should be helpless, but there he is, having seemingly used the Ring to defeat a wight and arm himself with an “anti-Nazgul� blade.

Sure, he did cry out the name of Elbereth (and that hurt the nazgul more than the blade, as Aragorn states), but he has put a pretty pathetic show when he meets the nazgul, quaking as with bitter cold, being as terrified as the other hobbits who threw themselves flat on the ground; Frodo also obeyed the temptation to put on the ring - most likely under the command of the nazguls. _None_ of these are signs of a person who masters the ring to whatever relevant degree - quite the contrary I would say.

Kind of, sort of related question: Apparently the art of making “anti-Nazgul� blades was lost or abandoned. Could this be due to the (possibly) well known prophesy about the Witch King’s defeat? If a Man couldn’t kill him, and the swords are made for Men, why continue to make the swords?

Those weapons were not specifically anti-nazgul, but "wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor", as we learn from the Departure of Boromir. Their craft probably dissappeared with the demise of Numenor, them being work of Westernesse.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

All races are aware of him, _northmen_ included. He wasn't that far from the events involving the witch-king and the northern kingdoms - the chief nazgul most likely knew of him before there were any barrow wights.

"Northmen" in Elrond's quote are most likely Men who lived nearby, the Cardolani Men, that is, not the Angmarians. Note that Tom is not known even in Bree (it is clear from the drafts in HOME VII: "Is he known to Butterbur? - No."). Even if the WK passed through Bree several times back in 1300-1975, that wouldn't have enlightened him. And don't forget he was not supposed to know even about the land of the Shire (existing since 1600) and numerous hobbits in Northern Eriador.
He might have known of Tom, but he might not as well.

There is no sign about the hobbit ringbearer having any particular power; the w-k most likely met Gollum in person and saw that a hobbit having the ring for 4 centuries is no biggie.

CAB had addressed this well. Gollum was no biggie, but a hobbit wielding a Barrow Blade, and calling upon Elbereth (which only High Elves did - remember the quote: "They are High Elves, they sing of Elbereth") - that was a big surprise.

The fact that no evil can cross Tom's house must have been known for a long time - along with his power over the wood (I doubt Goldberrry calls him Master for nothing). He is probably the oldest being, and that most likely imply in itself a good deal of magic power.

Well, no one ever wanted his house... As for his LAND, it is another matter entirely. The facts contradict his supreme control over the territory.
We know for certain that
1. Tom didn't prevent the destruction of Cardolani warriors and people of Tyrn Gorthad by Angmarians back in 1409.
2. He let the Barrow Wights live on his territory and molest the passers-by for 1500 years. If they are not "Evil" then I don't know who is.
3. He let the Witch King visit the Barrow downs and arouse all the Wights AND all the Evil beings in the Old Forest.
So, where is this famous control? I don't say he had no magic power but he hardly used it, it seems. Too busy singing and dancing.

Originally Posted by Landroval

On the other hand, hobbits, like all Men, lack any magical powers

You missed my point. I was speaking of the Power of the One Ring, wielded by the Hobbit. Don't you think, if Frodo DID try, he might have commanded a Wight to depart? Considering the blessed #246, he MIGHT have.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Also, it is to be noted that there must have been other wights around, who could have told the witch-king about what happened; after all, Tom's enchantings are sure to be felt around. [Even the departed wight could have informed the w-k]

I agree. It might have. But we don't know if it did or not. It didn't seem able to stop at Andrath to report

At these words there was a cry and part of the inner end of the chamber fell in with a crash. Then there was a long trailing shriek, fading away into an unguessable distance; and after that silence.

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I don't think the other Wights travelled around much - one had to go to the Barrows to talk to them. They were inhabiting decaying corpses, after all - what if one looses a head or an arm while walking around?
Much easier to suppose that a Wight have stopped a Nazgul travelling to Andrath via the Barrow Downs and sent word to the WK with him. And also: did the other Wights know who sent away their colleague?

with all those spies around, the nazgul ought to have been informed on what happened.

"Ought", yes, but, "were" they? The Wight OUGHT to call the Witch-King once it had got the Ringbearer. He was not far, really. But the night ended, the day came and still nothing. Frodo had awoken and Bombadil came first. That is really a very BAD performance.

Originally Posted by CAB

I think it is a bit of an undue assumption to say that Tom never defeated a wight before. Maybe, maybe not. Also, like Landroval said, just the location of Bombadil’s house may have suggested to the Nazgul that Tom had the power to deal with wights and other evil powers.

I think he never prevented a wight from catching and burying some unwary traveler. Otherwise, from where did all the horrible tales come? There was perfect neutrality: the Wights let Tom be, and he let them be.
IF he wanted to rid the Barrows of the Wights, he could have done it many times over, couldn't he? He had 1500 years for the job, and certainly enough power.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Sure, he did cry out the name of Elbereth (and that hurt the nazgul more than the blade, as Aragorn states), but he has put a pretty pathetic show when he meets the nazgul, quaking as with bitter cold, being as terrified as the other hobbits who threw themselves flat on the ground; Frodo also obeyed the temptation to put on the ring - most likely under the command of the nazguls. _None_ of these are signs of a person who masters the ring to whatever relevant degree - quite the contrary I would say.

Aragorn most likely didn't know the importance of the blades. It is not even said that he even looked at them before Weathertop. I would say, he was mistaken.

As for "pathetic show" I strongly disagree. The pathetic show was in the movie. Compare the two scenes, and you will see that Frodo was far from pathetic in the book. He was the only one of the hobbits to offer resistance. He put on the Ring (an "object of terror" for all the nazgul), he cried to Elbereth and he attacked first and almost killed the Witch-King. If he had touched his leg, and not only his cloak, the WK would have been dead. "Pathetic", indeed .

Originally Posted by Landroval

Those weapons were not specifically anti-nazgul, but "wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor", as we learn from the Departure of Boromir. Their craft probably dissappeared with the demise of Numenor, them being work of Westernesse.

Nay, it is wrong. The blades were made n Arnor by "Men of Westernesse" = the Dunedain. It is only a translation of the Sindarin term. See this quote:

So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

We can tell that the blades were made between TA 1300 (the foundation of Angmar) and 1409 (when the Last Prince of Cardolan perished and was entombed in the Barrow). Most likely they date from 1356-1409, as it was only in 1356 that Angmar became aggressive.
But the know-how came from Numenor, here you are right. The Mouth of Sauron (or his Master) recognised the sword design and called it "the blade of the Downfallen West". Perhaps such swords were used against the nazgul back in the Second Age, and during the battles of the Last Alliance.

Originally Posted by CAB

Kind of, sort of related question: Apparently the art of making “anti-Nazgul� blades was lost or abandoned. Could this be due to the (possibly) well known prophesy about the Witch King’s defeat? If a Man couldn’t kill him, and the swords are made for Men, why continue to make the swords?

I don't think so, because the prophesy was made in 1975, when the WK was defeated and left the North. They Northern Dunedain didn't need the swords after that anyway.

BUT, I think the know-how of the sword making was lost much earlier, with the end of Cardolan. Perhaps there was a unique "school" of craftsmen in Tyrn Gorthad, and all of them were killed in the 1409 war, or , more likely, they died during the Plague of 1636. " It was at this time that an end came of the Dúnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there."
I believe, the Witch-King sent the Wights to guard the ONLY remaining blades. What was the point, if such blades were being constantly produced in Arthedain? No, likely the secret was lost.

There is no mention of such blades being used in the last Angmar War of 1974-75. And HAD there been such blades at the battle of Fornost, where Gondoreans fought alongside Arnoreans, don't you think that Earnur would have imported the blades and the secret of their making into Gondor? They have been attacked by the Witch-King only 27 years after the battle of Fornost and had him and the other nazgul as their close neighbors, right across the river , ever since. IF Earnur knew of the blades, the plant for their mass-production would have been installed in Minas-Tirith!

[Landroval]

"Northmen" in Elrond's quote are most likely Men who lived nearby, the Cardolani Men, that is, not the Angmarians.

I see no reason to restrict its meaning; but you are entitled to your opinion, of course.

Note that Tom is not known even in Bree (it is clear from the drafts in HOME VII: "Is he known to Butterbur? - No.")

Note that Gandalf himself comments on the short memory of this, otherwise, good intended bar keeper. I find it hard to believe he is representative of the knowledge of the northern men.

He might have known of Tom, but he might not as well.

Gandalf states that Tom will be the last to perrish, should Sauron win. If Sauron's second in command don't know about who Tom is, that makes them pretty dumb, esspecially since all races know of him.
Moreover, considering your previous statement:

Now, in September 3018, the Witch-King himself visited Tom's lands and not only had "a cup of tea " with the Wights, but also weaved some spells to arouse all evil things in the Old Forest (like Old Man Willow). It doesn't seem that the WK was hampered by Tom in any way, while trespassing.

and the fact that Tom's house is rather close to the barrows, this pictures the witch-king in such an ignorant position that it is not acceptable.

a hobbit wielding a Barrow Blade, and calling upon Elbereth (which only High Elves did - remember the quote: "They are High Elves, they sing of Elbereth")

If a hobbit can wield a ring to defeat a barrow-wight, I doubt he would resort crying in despair when facing a nazgul. You contradict yourself.

did the other Wights know who sent away their colleague?

They most likely picked up Tom's powerful incantations

Much easier to suppose that a Wight have stopped a Nazgul travelling to Andrath via the Barrow Downs and sent word to the WK with him

We also have all the other evil beings keeping an eye on the downs and the old forest.

As for "pathetic show" I strongly disagree.

Originally Posted by A knife in the dark, FotR

Terror overcame Pippin and Merry, and they threw themselves flat on the ground. Sam shrank to Frodo's side. Frodo was hardly less terrified than his companions; he was quaking as if he was bitter cold, but his terror was swallowed up in a sudden temptation to put on the Ring.

He was the only one of the hobbits to offer resistance. He put on the Ring

Putting the ring on is _not_ a sign of resistance, it was done at the nazgul's bidding, as seen in other ocasions.

Originally Posted by A knife in the dark, FotR

The desire to do this laid hold of him, and he could think of nothing else. He did not forget the Barrow, nor the message of Gandalf; but something seemed to be compelling him to disregard all warnings, and he longed to yield. Not with the hope of escape, or of doing anything, either good or bad: he simply felt that he must take the Ring and put it on his finger. He could not speak. He felt Sam looking at him, as if he knew that his master was in some great trouble, but he could not turn towards him. He shut his eyes and struggled for a while; but resistance became unbearable, and at last he slowly drew out the chain, and slipped the Ring on the forefinger of his left hand.

he cried to Elbereth

Pathetic

almost killed the Witch-King.

Say what?

This was the stroke of Frodo's sword, he said. The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King. More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth

Though the name of Elbereth may seed terror in the nazgul, no other harm was done, besides ripping a cloack. You are probably reffering to your own quote:

Originally Posted by The battle of Pelennor Fields

No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

This states clearly that this sword is _unique_; moreover, it only cleaved sinews, it didn't, in itself, kill the witch-king.

Aragorn most likely didn't know the importance of the blades.

I disagree:

Originally Posted by Departure of Boromir, TTT

- See! cried Aragorn. Here we find tokens! He picked out from the pile of grim weapons two knives, leaf-bladed, damasked in gold and red; and searching further he found also the sheaths, black, set with small red gems. No orc-tools these! he said. They were borne by the hobbits. Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think he never prevented a wight from catching and burying some unwary traveler. Otherwise, from where did all the horrible tales come? There was perfect neutrality: the Wights let Tom be, and he let them be.
IF he wanted to rid the Barrows of the Wights, he could have done it many times over, couldn't he? He had 1500 years for the job, and certainly enough power.

I am not suggesting that Tom was concerned to remove all the wights. He helped Frodo and Co., why couldn’t he have done this before? Tom doesn’t seem terribly concerned about the quest of the Ring, so why would his treatment of Frodo be so unique? I don’t see why Tom couldn’t have helped a few people out before without trying to remove all the wights or help every person who comes into contact with them. He said he first meeting with Frodo was “chance�. Chance simply wasn’t so kind to all those who traveled near the barrows.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I don't think so, because the prophesy was made in 1975, when the WK was defeated and left the North. They Northern Dunedain didn't need the swords after that anyway.

BUT, I think the know-how of the sword making was lost much earlier, with the end of Cardolan. Perhaps there was a unique "school" of craftsmen in Tyrn Gorthad, and all of them were killed in the 1409 war, or , more likely, they died during the Plague of 1636. " It was at this time that an end came of the Dúnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there."
I believe, the Witch-King sent the Wights to guard the ONLY remaining blades. What was the point, if such blades were being constantly produced in Arthedain? No, likely the secret was lost.

There is no mention of such blades being used in the last Angmar War of 1974-75. And HAD there been such blades at the battle of Fornost, where Gondoreans fought alongside Arnoreans, don't you think that Earnur would have imported the blades and the secret of their making into Gondor? They have been attacked by the Witch-King only 27 years after the battle of Fornost and had him and the other nazgul as their close neighbors, right across the river , ever since. IF Earnur knew of the blades, the plant for their mass-production would have been installed in Minas-Tirith!

That makes sense. I like the idea of the wights being sent to guard the swords. To me, it seems that the fact that a Hobbit, rather than a Man, was holding the blade on Weathertop may have been another reason for the Nazgul to be frightened.

Originally Posted by Landroval

this pictures the witch-king in such an ignorant position that it is not acceptable.

Personally, I would guess that the Witch King had some knowledge of Tom. But, that in itself is not particularly important regarding the situation on Weathertop. The question is: Would the possibility of Tom’s involvement occur to the Nazgul in the heat of the moment when they confront Frodo and Co.? I don’t think so, myself. The biggest thing in their minds (by far) probably was the Ring. Then we have the barrow-blade/wight and also Gandalf’s clear involvement. Bombadil, who seems to have always kept a relatively low profile, was probably the last thing on their minds at that moment.

Regarding the question of communications between the Witch King and the evil forces in the area:

the Barrow-wights were roused, and all things of evil spirit, hostile to Elves and Men, were on the watch with malice in the Old Forest and on the Barrow-downs.

This quote suggests that the wights and other evil beings were “awakened� but not necessarily that they were reporting to the Nazgul. I don’t think they were. If they had been, considering how completely the evil beings covered the area, the Hobbits couldn’t possibly have remained hidden from the Nazgul. Of course, they had Tom’s protection for a while, but the Nazgul should have been able to take Frodo before he ever got to Bree.

[Landroval]

That makes sense. I like the idea of the wights being sent to guard the swords.

If there was anything critical about the swords for the life of the nazguls, I doubt they would have been left out for grabs; after all, a bunch of wights is not the ultimate defence in the history of Ea. Aragorn would most likely have requested to wield one of these blades, but he didn't and I doubt he didn't observe them on the hobbits. As it stands, these didn't happen.

This quote suggests that the wights and other evil beings were “awakened� but not necessarily that they were reporting to the Nazgul.

I doubt they were put to take notes and report to Sauron after the whole thing ended. As Gordis pointed out previously, "according to the notes on the movements of the Black riders in HOME VII "The Treason of Isengard", the Riders, who attacked Crickhollow while hobbits were at Bree (the night after the destruction of the wight), returned to the Witch-King at Andrath to report, thus likely passing right through the fields of barrows." If they did, they sure must have noticed all the treasures from the tomb lying in the open and would have been informed at that moment, the latest.

[Gordis]

Hmm, Landroval, this time I disagree with most of what you say.

Originally Posted by Landroval

If a hobbit can wield a ring to defeat a barrow-wight, I doubt he would resort crying in despair when facing a nazgul. You contradict yourself.

He was not only crying in despair. He also took out his blade and struck. Whether he was crying or not is immaterial. Eowyn also was crying. Nazgul aura of despair is not for nothing.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Putting the ring on is _not_ a sign of resistance, it was done at the nazgul's bidding, as seen in other ocasions.

IMO not at the nazgul's bidding, but at the Ring's bidding. The Ring made him put it on. Sometimes it slipped on his finger all by itself (in the Pony, where no nazgul were sitting around drinking beer), sometimes it urged him to put it on, even when no nazgul were around

At first Frodo felt as if he had indeed been turned into stone by the incantation. Then a wild thought of escape came to him. He wondered if he put on the Ring, whether the Barrow-wight would miss him, and he might find some way out. He thought of himself running free over the grass, grieving for Merry, and Sam, and Pippin, but free and alive himself. Gandalf would admit that there had been nothing else he could do.

Even Bilbo felt the urge to put on the Ring

Sometimes I have felt it was like an eye looking at me. And I am always wanting to put it on and disappear

For the nazgul, Frodo's putting the Ring on might signify that he wanted to claim it and wield it. As I said earlier, it would have been quite a difficult situation.

Originally Posted by Landroval

If there was anything critical about the swords for the life of the nazguls, I doubt they would have been left out for grabs; after all, a bunch of wights is not the ultimate defence in the history of Ea. Aragorn would most likely have requested to wield one of these blades, but he didn't and I doubt he didn't observe them on the hobbits. As it stands, these didn't happen.

They were not out for grabs, they were guarded quite well. Just think of the REAL history of grave-robbers: most graves with fabulous treasures were robbed shortly after the burial. As far as I know most of the pyramids in Egypt were eventually robbed despite numerous traps and well-hidden entrances, so that the pharaohs later were buried in unmarked graves. And the treasures of the Barrows (gold, jewels, etc) were not despoiled for 1500 years.

I would say, the Wights were pretty efficient. Sure there were some Maiar and High Elves (and Tom) who COULD rob the graves, but were they likely to? And, anyway, the Witch-King had no power to guard anything from a Maia or someone like Glorfindel. As protection against humans, the Wights were perfect. I think that was one of the reasons why Tom left the Wights be. He hardly wanted the burials of the Edain despoiled. If he had sent the Wights away, he would have had to guard the Barrows himself - and he had other things to do, like singing and talking and collecting lilies for Goldberry, a busy man that he was.

1500 years is a pretty LONG time for men, long even for the immortals. Do we know much about year 506 AD? I am almost sure that Aragorn and the Rangers didn't know about the existence of such swords in the Barrows. Perhaps they heard legends about some fabulous swords of old, but most likely not. They were descendants of the Arthedain line, not of that of Cardolan. Did Gandalf know about the swords lying in the Barrows? Probably not.

Even Bombadil probably has discovered the swords ONLY at the moment he took them out of the Barrow.

Think about it: he knew the hobbits were hunted by Nazgul, he knew they carried the Ring. But he made no move to go fetch the swords for them in the Barrows. If they were NOT entrapped by the Wights, they would have never got the Barrow-Blades.
Gondor was fighting against Minas Morgul for centuries. IF Bombadil told Gandalf that some very handy swords were kept in the Barrows, Gadalf would have contrived to fetch some for Gondoreans, I think.

The swords are yet another thing, like the Ring, like the Palantiri, almost forgotten by everybody or believed to be a vague legend. Note in the LOTR the Wise are not all-knowing, they forget things, or they don't think of their importance in time (the Ring and the Palantiri).

Now, could EVERYONE see the BD swords for what they were immediately? I think NOT. They fell under the category of the "blades of Westernesse" (see ref. from Path Galen and reference by the Mouth of Sauron) and for those who knew more of the lore (Denethor), there were some indications that they were "Made in Arnor". There were some runes on them, that indicated that they were wrought with spells. There was also a general "bad feeling" the blades produced in all evil beings (like orcs, who dropped them at Part Galen).
But could Aragorn or Denethor see that it was a specific anti-nazgul weapon? I think NOT. Tom could, but he was an exception. And the quote about Aragorn:

See! cried Aragorn. Here we find tokens! He picked out from the pile of grim weapons two knives, leaf-bladed, damasked in gold and red; and searching further he found also the sheaths, black, set with small red gems. No orc-tools these! he said. They were borne by the hobbits. Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor.

shows that he DOESN't understand the purpose of the swords. They were wrought with runes for the bane of ANGMAR and its KING, not "MORDOR"! At the time when they were made, Mordor was desolate and closely guarded by Gondor.
The only one who knew all about the blades, it seems, was the Witch-King himself. He must have seen such blades before and had hardly forgotten them. He didn't need to examine the blade: for him who lived in the Spirit-World, the blade burned red like a beacon, the same way as the Morgul knife glowed with a pale light:

... and slipped the Ring on the forefinger of his left hand.
Immediately, though everything else remained as before, dim and dark, the shapes became terribly clear. ... Desperate, he drew his own sword, and it seemed to him that it flickered red, as if it was a firebrand. Two of the figures halted. The third was taller than the others: his hair was long and gleaming and on his helm was a crown. In one hand he held a long sword, and in the other a knife; both the knife and the hand that held it glowed with a pale light

.
Aragorn, as you know, wore Narsil with him, even broken. I guess, this blade could also qualify as the "bane of Mordor" , but the quote about Barrow-Down swords :

No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

is unambiguous: it is the Narrator's words, not words of one of the characters of the story. Aragorn might have been mistaken, but the Narrator not. So for fighting the WK, it was better than Sting, Narsil, Glamdring etc.
I think, the advantage of the spell on the Barrow-Downs sword was its specificity. Note the case of the Shelob's nets: the BD sword failed to cut it, while Sting did. The BD swords were not particularly good against anything but nazgul. Likely, the spell was directed against only one person : the Witch-King of Angmar, not some "general" spell against evil things. It is even debatable, if it was as efficient against the other nazgul, I think yes, but we can't be sure. It seems it also was very unpleasant for the orcs, etc.., but its MAIN target was undoubtedly the Witch-King. And exactly SUCH a blade in the hand of a "no-Man" later proved his undoing.

Originally Posted by Landroval

moreover, it only cleaved sinews, it didn't, in itself, kill the witch-king.

An ordinary sword, if stuck behind a knee of an ordinary man, would ONLY cleave sinews. Here it is clearly written: that it BROKE THE SPELL that knit his sinews (his material body) to his will. The WK became PARALYZED and an easy pray for Eowyn.
Note that Gandalf said (to Legolas) that the nazgul could not be killed with arrows. Why? Because they could be affected ONLY by the blades, that COULD reach them in the World of Shadows where they lived. BD swords were such, likely Glamdring and Narsil were such also, but the BD sword, being MORE specific, was the best.
Yes I repeat, Frodo ALMOST killed the Witch-King, or, at least, almost wounded him critically. Proof? Here:

L # 210 [Tolkien's comments on the film 'treatment' of The Lord of the Rings.] The riders draw slowly in on foot in darkness, and do not 'spur'. There is no fight. Sam does not 'sink his blade into the Ringwraith's thigh', nor does his thrust save Frodo's life. ([B]If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20: the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed.[B])

Why would the WK "fall down" from a wound in his thigh? (even if "fall down" is meant literally, not like in "downfall") . Clearly Tolkien again refers to the breaking of the spell.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Though the name of Elbereth may seed terror in the nazgul, no other harm was done, besides ripping a cloack.

Of course, because Frodo MISSED the leg, and ONLY damaged the cloak. Aragorn knew that he missed the WK, because otherwise the sword would be destroyed. Any sword (including the BD ) were destroyed after hitting a nazgul.
This quote is another indication that Aragorn didn't know of the BD blade properties. If he did, he would have commented in a different way ("The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for the Witch-King didn't fall down"). It could have been cheering to the hobbits to know they had got swords really dangerous for the nazgul. But Aragorn said nothing - he didn't know it.

[Landroval]

Eowyn also was crying

You are misleading; Eowyn's tears were due to her pain, not to fear.

IMO not at the nazgul's bidding, but at the Ring's bidding.

Hope never dies, right??

Originally Posted by Flight to the Ford, FotR

He bitterly regretted his foolishness, and reproached himself for weakness of will; for he now perceived that in putting on the Ring he obeyed not his own desire but the commanding wish of his enemies

shows that he DOESN't understand the purpose of the swords. They were wrought with runes for the bane of ANGMAR and its KING, not "MORDOR"! At the time when they were made, Mordor was desolate and closely guarded by Gondor.

Yeah right; Osgiliath is burned over in 1437, by who?? In 1974, the w-k overruns Arnor and 6 years later returns to Mordor. Even disconsidering that, the center of evil in Arda is still Mordor, whose foundations were still in place.

Aragorn might have been mistaken, but the Narrator not

The narrators of the story are hobbits; they wrote the Red Book, on which LotR is based.

Note that Gandalf said (to Legolas) that the nazgul could not be killed with arrows.

Then again, even Frodo has a mail shirt that saved him from a spear that could have skewered a wild boar; the nazguls being Sauron's top servants, were sure to have the best armor possible, defending them at least from arrows.

The WK became PARALYZED and an easy pray for Eowyn
...
Because they could be affected ONLY by the blades, that COULD reach them in the World of Shadows where they lived.

You contradict yourself; Eowyn's sword was an ordinary blade, but she killed the witch-king; as the King of the Marks appendix states, Merry only "aided".

This quote is another indication that Aragorn didn't know of the BD blade properties

What special propery is that? Why wouldn't Aragorn know it - as a Ranger of the north, heir of Arnor and Gondor, raised at the court of Middle-Earth's lore-master? Why don't Elrond and Gandalf make any mention about it, knowing that the hobbits are setting for Mordor, with the nazguls on hot pursuit? Or even Galadriel for that matter. It dealt a bitter wound and it made the w-k crie in bitter pain; so what? No amount of magic can make the body invulnerable, as even Melkor feared damage to his body, and even he was executed. Why did the nazgul walk right into Frodo, seeing that wielded the most dangerous (according to you) weapon against him? If one goes by your analysis, all wise ones are turning much dumber than they appear in the books.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

You are misleading; Eowyn's tears were due to her pain, not to fear.

And much difference does it make why did she cry? As for Frodo, to be precise, he was not crying at all. Please go and check.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Hope never dies, right??

Hope for what? Persuade you? Well, I am not sure that hope never dies...

Originally Posted by Landroval

Originally Posted by Flight to the Ford, FotR:
He bitterly regretted his foolishness, and reproached himself for weakness of will; for he now perceived that in putting on the Ring he obeyed not his own desire but the commanding wish of his enemies

He may be mistaken, right? "NOT his own desire" is correct, "the commanding wish" is correct also, but are you sure that it was the will of the nazgul, not the Ring? And how would Frodo know which one? How do you explain the cases when he/Bilbo/Sam was compelled to put on the Ring when no nazgul were nearby? When the Ring slipped on his finger all by itself?

Yeah right; Osgiliath is burned over in 1437, by who??

Surely, Landroval, you SHOULD know this. Osgiliath was burned in the Civil war: Eldacar vs Castamir the Usurper.

In 1974, the w-k overruns Arnor and 6 years later returns to Mordor. Even disconsidering that, the center of evil in Arda is still Mordor, whose foundations were still in place.

As I have proved in my previous posts, the Barrow Downs blades were most likely made between 1300 and 1409, the LATEST possible date is 1636. So the fact that the WK returned to Mordor in 1980 is absolutely irrelevant here.
And with the Necromancer in Mirkwood and the Witch-King in Carn-Dum the center of evil was HARDLY in Mordor, foundations or not. The Cardolani guys who made the blade certainly believed it was in Carn-Dum.

The narrators of the story are hobbits; they wrote the Red Book, on which LotR is based.

In general it is right, but there were parts from other sources (chronicles etc.). Hardly the passage "So passed the sword of the Barrow-Downs..." belongs to a hobbit.. Tolkien often made his characters make wrong or incomplete statements, but it hardly applies to this quote.

Then again, even Frodo has a mail shirt that saved him from a spear that could have skewered a wild boar; the nazguls being Sauron's top servants, were sure to have the best armor possible, defending them at least from arrows.

You are the first person I know who thinks that Gandalf when saying that the nazgul could not be killed with arrows, simply referred to their mail shirts...

Originally Posted by Landroval

You contradict yourself; Eowyn's sword was an ordinary blade, but she killed the witch-king; as the King of the Marks appendix states, Merry only "aided".

Eowyn's sword was ordinary, but she struck AFTER the spell was broken. I have seen people argue that the Barrow-blades were in some way opposite to Morgul blades - one transferred the body to the World of Shadows, the other brought the bodies back into the World of light, making them vulnerable to all the ordinary weapons. It is conjecture, of course, but I like it.
Aided? Without Merry AND his sword, Eowyn would have been beaten into pulp on the spot. But the songs of the Mark of course put her forward...

Originally Posted by Landroval

What special propery is that? Why wouldn't Aragorn know it - as a Ranger of the north, heir of Arnor and Gondor, raised at the court of Middle-Earth's lore-master? Why don't Elrond and Gandalf make any mention about it, knowing that the hobbits are setting for Mordor, with the nazguls on hot pursuit? Or even Galadriel for that matter.

Aragorn and Co wouldn't know it if the secret was long lost and forgotten. Aragorn was of the line of Arthedain. Arthedain and Cardolan were most often bitter enemies. BD sword is a rare example of HUMAN magic, unknown to Elrond and Galadriel.
[quote=Landroval] It dealt a bitter wound and it made the w-k crie in bitter pain; so what? No amount of magic can make the body invulnerable, as even Melkor feared damage to his body, and even he was executed. [/quoteIt also made the WK bend his shoulders, probably standing on all fours, and wait paralyzed while Merry called to Eowyn , while Eowyn struggled up and prepared to strike.
As for Morgoth, sorry, but he was executed by the Valar.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Why did the nazgul walk right into Frodo, seeing that wielded the most dangerous (according to you) weapon against him? If one goes by your analysis, all wise ones are turning much dumber than they appear in the books.

Two of the three didn't - they halted. The Witch-King was not dumb, he was valiant. There is such thing as courage, you know. And there is fear of Sauron. The Red Eye of the Big Brother was watching...

[Landroval]

And much difference does it make why did she cry?

Her cry was not an effect of w-k's influence on her; she didn't fear him.

as for Frodo, to be precise, he was not crying at all

??
You probably misunderstood me; I was reffering to his cry of Elbereth.

He may be mistaken, right? "NOT his own desire" is correct, "the commanding wish" is correct also, but are you sure that it was the will of the nazgul, not the Ring?

If, despite the textual evidence, your persist in your personal interpretation, fine by me.

Osgiliath was burned in the Civil war: Eldacar vs Castamir the Usurper.

I conceed I went a bit overboard; the main point remains - the fall of Osgiliath refutes your point that Mordor was closely guarded.

And with the Necromancer in Mirkwood and the Witch-King in Carn-Dum the center of evil was HARDLY in Mordor, foundations or not

Aragorn, speaking after the fact, was surely aware that the target of any spell against the enemy must eventually be Mordor. The witch-king did not derrive any kind of magic from Angmar.

Eowyn's sword was ordinary, but she struck AFTER the spell was broken

What's your point? It doesn't say Merry's blow somehow left all the body of the w-k without his presumed invulnerability to normal weapons. If anything, he still have magic running through him, seeing that Eowyn's sword is destroyed.

Aragorn and Co wouldn't know it if the secret was long lost and forgotten. Aragorn was of the line of Arthedain. Arthedain and Cardolan were most often bitter enemies.

You are contradicting yourself
"But the know-how came from Numenor, here you are right. The Mouth of Sauron (or his Master) recognised the sword design and called it "the blade of the Downfallen West"."

Two of the three didn't - they halted. The Witch-King was not dumb, he was valiant. There is such thing as courage, you know. And there is fear of Sauron. The Red Eye of the Big Brother was watching...

If there was any real deadly threat about that sword, the chief nazgul would _not_ have confronted it alone, with the others standing back. He would have most likely paralysed Frodo, as he did at the Ford.

It also made the WK bend his shoulders, probably standing on all fours, and wait paralyzed while Merry called to Eowyn , while Eowyn struggled up and prepared to strike

He wasn't waiting, nor was he paralysed, he stumbled and bowed at the time when he was hit. That is what usually happens when a knee sinew is cut.