Why have Merry and Pippin in the Fellowship?

[hectorberlioz]

yes, but Hobbits had an innocence that dwarves didnt, which would ultimately save them from becoming evil.
And you forget, Frodo was already becomning susceptible to the "dark side" from the beginning whne he recieved the ring. Now, I dont want to pick on Gimli or anything, but Dwarves are naturally very greedy people. And I'm sure Legolas picked up a bit of greediness from his father .

[Nurvingiel]

I think this thread needs a bump. This post in "Were the elves allies to Gondor" thread made me think of Merry and Pippin's importance in the Fellowship.

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

It was a proposal. He proposed to fill the reamining two positions of the the Fellowship (Merry and Pippins) to be filled by members of his own household.

Olmer responds:

Originally Posted by Olmer

Oh, yes, sorry, he CONSIDER this , but seems to me did not insist on it too much.
"It's a dangerous road. The evil Nine Riders will be agaist you. You will face a lot of perils.You can't replace the skillfull in fights, strong and wise Elves which will protect Frodo from the harm and made his quest successful. I forsee that the two bumbling hobbits will seriously undermine the whole idea of the quest's speed and secrecy... "
"But we want to go!"..
"O'key!"

Don't forget that Elrond was ultimately convinced to include Merry and Pippin because of their loyalty and friendship to Frodo. He felt that this would be stronger than including two elf-lords from his household, which is why I believe he said (paraphrase) "if I had a host of Elf-lords it would avail nothing." (I think that was Elrond. )
EDIT: Merry and Pippin weren't bumbling. Ignore the movies! Cast the questionably shaped carrots from your mind!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Elrond would have insisted on it had it been anyone other than Gandalf insisting against him. He knew Gandalf was a greater spirit than he an knew that if Gandalf saidd that that would be best, it would be best.

[Nurvingiel]

I think rather than being daunted by Gandalf, Elrond saw the wisdom in his words. (Unless that's what you meant. )

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah that is.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Merry and Pippin weren't bumbling.
Cast the questionably shaped carrots from your mind!

Here is my carrot.
Their blundering cost the life of two major personalities in the Fellowship: Gandalf and Boromir.
All their loyalty would not be counted if they wouldn't have other important qualities , such as being the Hobbits , and therefore being small and quick they have a better chance to penetrate Mordor unseen, then their unusually long resistance to the ring, and then comes their loyalty to Frodo, in this case they will be willing to take Frodo's burden if he woun't be able to continue.
Simply , it was just very calculated decision.

[inked]

Olmer,

If it was a calculated decision, on your evidence it was a bad calculation.

Hobbits in general represent the innocent enjoyment of goodness which they take for granted. Part of the reason for the inclusion of them in the FOTR is this quality. It did grant them a certain immunity to temptation by the Ring as witnessed by Frodo's long resistance and Sam's temptation to be SuperGardener! But behind the naivete is a solid appreciation for, understanding of, and committment to the world of Middle Earth as it was. This gave them qualities and abilities other than those of the wiser, older, and fairer races. I think they are foils to the Haradrim and other men seduced by Sauron and we are meant to hold this comparison in mind.

It was precisely this quality of commoner appreciation of the world that Tolkein saw in WWI during his service and which so impressed him. The inclusion of the Hobbits is an homage to the English workingman who likes his ale and pub and fun, but when put to it, will stick it out. I think the Letters has reference to this. Tolkein says that when the rubber meets the road people who understand macadam and tires are the people who really count!

Gandalf's recommendation for trusting to friendship is an ellipsis for this concept, IMHO. The calculation was that despite their adolescence in regard to the way the world was, their simplicity would confound the wise and Sauron. In this regard only was it calculated. The sum was not completed until the Shire was scoured.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Their blundering cost the life of two major personalities in the Fellowship: Gandalf and Boromir.

About Gandalf:
How did Merry or Pippin cause his death? I think the Balrog had something to do with it. Further, he came back to life (or however you want to say it, not important in this thread), which could be credited for his defeat of Saruman because he was then Gandalf the White. This eliminated an extremely dangerous and cunning enemy from hampering the Quest. So not only was this not Merry or Pippin's fault, it also turned out for the better. (As a side note, I think that Gandalf sort of knew he had to face the Balrog. IIRC, it was Aragorn who was more opposed to going through Moria.)

Boromir died because he deliberately sought out Frodo. When the orcs attacked, he was closer to the Hobbits, and also alone. When Merry and Pippin were captured, he died defending him. But they would have lived even if he had not been there. Boromir placed himself in harms way because he was brave and noble, but also because of his earlier actions towards Frodo.

There is no Elf-Gandalf conspiracy or what have you to be found in Merry and Pippin's inclusion in the Fellowship.

[Pytt]

about gandalf I think he means that Pippin warned the orcs, and the balrog of their, the company's, presence in moria. maybe they had got out without any loses, hadn't pippin alarmed them.

[Nurvingiel]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I doubt they would have made it through Moria without being noticed, even with Gimli and Gandalf's knowledge and skill. The place was crawling with orcs, and the Balrog was already waking up/awake/stirring.

[Pytt]

i don't either think they would have got out unnoticed, but however small the chance is, it's there. and they would certainly have got nearer the exit, before noticed.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

About Gandalf:
How did Merry or Pippin cause his death?

Pippin's stone on the Balrog's head, figuratively speaking.
They had very good chances to pass Moria unnoiticed and unharmed, if Pippin wouldn't broadcast theirs presence .

I think that Gandalf sort of knew he had to face the Balrog. IIRC, it was Aragorn who was more opposed to going through Moria

.
O, yes, he knew and nevertheless INSISTED on going into Moria tunnels.
No,Aragorn! Don't even try to talk me out of it! I'm already sick and tired of all this responsibilities which Valar hang on me .I have a death wish!

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Boromir died because he deliberately sought out Frodo. When the orcs attacked, he was closer to the Hobbits, and also alone

.
Why exactly he happened to be closer to the Hobbits and alone?
Because they disobeyed Aragorn's order and run wildly into the woods. Aragorn asked Boromir to look after them.
If they would stay where they were ordered to stay the orcs attack would be easily deferred, because between 4 great warriors + 2 hobbits to overtake a hundred orcs would be a child play.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

There is no Elf-Gandalf conspiracy

Let say it's no conspiracy, just politics and decisions made not out of whim , but out of thoroughly weighted up consideration of the nesessary matters for the success of such grandiose and life-or-death issue plan.
Which bring us to inked statement.

Originally Posted by inked

...their simplicity would confound the wise and Sauron. In this regard only was it calculated.

The calculation was made on the clear understanding that only small and quick hobbits, and not commandos with axes and bows, can filter in the heart of Mordor.
What do you think, who would become the Ringbearer if Frodo would been lost in Moria? It seems to me - Sam... King has died, but the show must go on! And exactly for this reason there are 3 spare hobbits in the group, instead of 3 pumped-up warriors. While at least one hobbit remains - the mission is alive.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Pippin's stone on the Balrog's head, figuratively speaking.
They had very good chances to pass Moria unnoiticed and unharmed, if Pippin wouldn't broadcast theirs presence .

I think that the battle would have alerted the Balrog of intruders to.

[Haradrim]

Im not saying I agree with Olmer but T.D. you couyld also iunfer form the stone being dropped that its noise and commotion alereted the oprcs to the prescence of intruders so Pippens stones alerted the orcs and raised the BAlrog. In my opinion that counts as bumbling however I do not agree that merry and Pippen caused Boromirs death. In fact on the quest as a whole the two hobbits were very important. The Ents, Merry and the Witch-King. They helped out in many ways. Stil onto why they were allowed to come. They were allowed to come because it was an open fellowship. It was up to the free peoples to decide what to do with the ring. Merry and Pippen decided to come along and help their friends. it was their right. They had every right to come along and they did. Also I think that Gandalf had another feeling about the hobbits and so did Elrond and even Aragorn to an extent. They just felt that they would be helpful if not necessary to the quest.

[Lenya]

I think that Elrond would rather have excluded them from the Fellowship, but he probably knew that they would follow Frodo in any case. Rather than having two amatuers trailing behind them, he allowed them to tag along.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Lenya

I think that Elrond would rather have excluded them from the Fellowship, but he probably knew that they would follow Frodo in any case. Rather than having two amatuers trailing behind them, he allowed them to tag along.

THis is answered in this week's discussion chapter. Merry and Pippin inform Elrond that they would have to be physically restrained not to follow. Gandalf points out that even sending someone like Glorfindel wouldn't help the Ringbearer much, and that trusting to love and friendship is as good a trust as any.

[Lenya]

Oh. I haven't been to that thread.

[Manveru]

I find that Gandalf's insisting the hobbits go with the Fellowship is very similar to Gandalf insisting to Thorin that Bilbo has to go with them. Especially if you have read UT, in the Quest of Erebor chapter Gandalf said he had a foresight that Bilbo would be needed to fufill the quest. At the end of Return of the King Gandalf hints that he may have had a foresight that Merry and Pippin would save lives in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Merry saves Eowyn and helps to kill the Witch King and Pippin saves Faramir. in 'the Quest of Erebor' Gandalf argues with Thorin and has with a ferocity that even he can't explain "I knew in my heart that Bilbo must go with him, or the whole quest would be a failure- or, as I should say now, the far more important events by the way would not have come to pass." And this isn't the last time this sort of thing happens to him. He argues with Elrond later who isn't as hot-headed as Thorin so they don't get into an actual argument but he probably realizes that Gandalf is having some sort of foresight, or perhaps he is having a foresight too. But he probably knows to trust Gandalf, knowing what he is and what he was sent to Middle-Earth to accomplish.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Manveru

I find that Gandalf's insisting the hobbits go with the Fellowship is very similar to Gandalf insisting to Thorin that Bilbo has to go with them.
....Gandalf said he had a foresight that Bilbo would be needed to fufill the quest.

Bilbo was used, as many gullible hobbits before him, to serve Gandalf's agendas. He was needed for the seach of the Ring.
Thorin was right, if Bilbo by sheer chance wouldn't found the Ring , his presence would be not only useless, but even dangerous to the group.
You can tell anything to persuade pragmatic Thorin to accept your way from a declaration of the "foresight" to an unveiled threatening, but it doesn't change the fact that, aside of the wielding of the ring, personal abilities of Bilbo were contributing nothing to the Quest.

Elrond later who isn't as hot-headed as Thorin so they don't get into an actual argument but he probably realizes that Gandalf is having some sort of foresight, or perhaps he is having a foresight too.

The same thing with Merry and Pippin, they were intended to be used as "spare hobbits" to replace Frodo and Sam if the need arise.
In this case I agree with Lenya that rather than let two "bumblers" to compromise the secrecy of the mission they were allowed to stay with the Fellowship.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Gandalf points out that even sending someone like Glorfindel wouldn't help the Ringbearer much, and that trusting to love and friendship is as good a trust as any.

And why, may I ask you, he points out that the love and friendship between ingenious hobbits was more important in the quest success, than the help of experienced, valiant and wise Glorfindel?
Because Glorfindel, indeed , can't do the task which was heaved by Frodo -the hobbit. As Elrond profoundly declared:"It is fate that the HOBBITS should rid the world of it".. (HME,"The Retutn of the Shadow")
And the love and friendship is a sure thing that by sharing the burden of Frodo's quest they will carry it out to the end.

[ItalianLegolas]

because without them, isengard might have never been destroyed, which would have been almost certain death at the Pelennor fields