Passing of the Grey Company + Muster of Rohan

[Valandil]

I also think we don't know how scared Aragorn's Dunedain companions may have been - they didn't say. Gimli related his fear to the hobbits, so they faithfully recorded it in their account of things.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I also think we don't know how scared Aragorn's Dunedain companions may have been - they didn't say. Gimli related his fear to the hobbits, so they faithfully recorded it in their account of things.

well, that's an interesting angle to take... because if we view it as gimli's account, then it (between the lines) suggests he may have not been the only one - or.. that he was bitter about not being helped ... why did legolas who did nor fear the shades of men, not help him out?

what was edited out here for history?

the heirs of Valandil, crawling on all fours in fear?

this of course leads to other questions .. if we take the red book as the account as passed on to the hobbits largely ... how objective a tale of the war of the ring can it be?

could not then, nazgul, say, have been largely mis-represented?

Were the exploits of merry and pippin given undue prominence?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

the heirs of Valandil, crawling on all fours in fear?

Hey! Well... if they WERE afraid, at least they still went and did what they had to do, despite their fear. Commendable, eh?

could not then, nazgul, say, have been largely mis-represented?

Well... perhaps. I'd say they were represented a bit too kindly.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Hey! Well... if they WERE afraid, at least they still went and did what they had to do, despite their fear. Commendable, eh?

well, quite.

and after all, we can't expect them to live up to valandil's levels!


Nurv:

I think Gimli would want to deal with this himself. He seemed mad at himself for being afraid when he made himself go in saying 'an Elf will go underground and a Dwarf will not' (or something).

mmm, maybe it started then for Gimli? ... and he never subsequently got on top of it?

In a way the connection with earth and solid uncanny things that is the dwarven world does play well here, i feel,

but what of legolas?

what was he doing?

no one seems to want to address this...

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

well, that's an interesting angle to take... because if we view it as gimli's account, then it (between the lines) suggests he may have not been the only one - or.. that he was bitter about not being helped ... why did legolas who did nor fear the shades of men, not help him out?

Well, I did sort of address this when I said Gimli might want to overcome his fear by himself.

I imagine Legolas was duly scared. Aren't Elves sensitive to this sort of thing? Shades of Men and such.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Were the exploits of merry and pippin given undue prominence?

Hee. As Frodo was the editor, I somehow doubt this.

[Butterbeer]

NURV!!!

what are you suggesting?

that actually frodo got no further than the old forest? .. that it was in fact fatty bolger that bravely took up the baton from there?

well, they say history is written by the victors ... or those with the most time to write ...

nay, regarding legolas, by even frodo's accounts .. legolas was unmoved and felt not the fear at all .. little did he heed them, pale and insignificant he thought them ....

and whilst yes, a small case may be made for the pride of gimli wanting no help, maybe at first, he soon lost all pride and almost despaired .... i cannot see for a momment that he would not have welcomed any help ..esp from legolas at this point.

just what was legolas doing here, marching along whistling looking neither left nor right, and concentrating hard on ignoring everything around him?


Nay, Nurv ... what is truly going on here?

[Serenoli]

NURV!!!

what are you suggesting?

that actually frodo got no further than the old forest? .. that it was in fact fatty bolger that bravely took up the baton from there?

Thats such a funny idea!

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

NURV!!!

what are you suggesting?

that actually frodo got no further than the old forest? .. that it was in fact fatty bolger that bravely took up the baton from there?

well, they say history is written by the victors ... or those with the most time to write ...

Frodo or Fatty, what is the difference? In truth, the Ring was destroyed by the nazgul!!!
But history is written by the victors...

[Butterbeer]

well, in one very real sense you are right CS ... effectively the ring was destroyed by the nazgul- if we accept the theory they wanted it to be destroyed and never truly sought to carry out their master's wishes ...

Serenoli ... maybe not so funny .... arch theorist Nurv may have hit on something here ....

just what editorial credentials are we given for frodo?? what references?



So ... The Palantir and the eye of sauron .... the will and strength of Aragorn .... did he get lucky?


How much was it sheer belief in his ancestral rights that enabled him so quickly to master the stone?

Was Sauron, shocked and knocked off guard?

would he be able to do it a second time (or at least so quickly??)

what do you think?

[Nurvingiel]

My comment about Frodo was just to say I doubt he played up the significance of Merry and Pippin's roles. I think they did contribute that much.

I forgot the quote about Legolas not being afraid.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

well, in one very real sense you are right CS ... effectively the ring was destroyed by the nazgul- if we accept the theory they wanted it to be destroyed and never truly sought to carry out their master's wishes ...

Yes. Well the nazgul conspiracy (very possible, though) will never be accepted by majority. But let's take Gollum. Where would the Quest have been without him? It would have never succeeded. But has anybody said "thankyou" to his memory, built a monument or something? No. He is mentioned in the Red Book by honest Frodo, but not in the official story. HAVE A LOOK at Silm's "The Rings of Power and the 3 Age":

For Frodo the Halfling, it is said, at the bidding of Mithrandir took on himself the burden, and alone with his servant he passed through peril and darkness and came at last in Sauron's despite even to Mount Doom; and there into the Fire where it was wrought he cast the Great Ring of Power, and so at last it was unmade and its evil consumed.

Is there a word about Gollum? Really the story is written by the victors!

[The Gaffer]

Heh. Also, they were posh history-writers: "alone with his servant" indeed. So not alone, then.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

My comment about Frodo was just to say I doubt he played up the significance of Merry and Pippin's roles. I think they did contribute that much.

...

funny how you can read things two ways ...


right .. next discussion point:

the dead ... the oath breakers ...

how exactly did they fight?

[Serenoli]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

the dead ... the oath breakers ...

how exactly did they fight?

Hmmm... I don't think they ever mentioned it in the books... you don't think that maybe they just scared everyone to death? Seeing as they're dead, its possible...

[Gordis]

I don't think they had any material bodies, they were not like nazgul: they had no rings. They were ghosts, living entirely in the Spirit World
So they could hardly interact physically with the World of Light.

Yes, Serenoli is right, they must have scared everybody, that is all.

But there is a strange thing, how come Sauron the Necromancer has not taken such an army of ghosts "under his wing"? Probably he just had no time, as he started the war earlier than planned?

[The Gaffer]

What power would Sauron have over the Dead?

Isildur invoked a curse on the people of Whereveritwas, which presumably prevented them from departing to wherever it is that Men's spirits go when they die. So, these were no ordinary Dead.

Perhaps a more relevant question would be how Isildur managed to curse them in this way and how Eru tolerated/implemented it. (One has to assume there was no Valar involved as they were in the dark about the fate of Men as well.)

[Gordis]

Sauron was known as a Necromancer, so the spirits of the dead were his speciality, so to say.
He has played tricks with spirits of Men in the First Age (Gollim and his wife); his "pupil" the Witch-King was the master of the Barrow-wights, so I don't see why he couldn't "lay his hands" on the spirits of the Men of Dunharrow.
Here is a passage from "Laws and Customs of the Eldar". It speaks of Elvish fëar, but it shows that Morgoth and Sauron were ever the hunters for disembodied souls.

"The fëa is single, and in the last impregnable. It cannot be brought to Mandos. It is summoned; and the summons proceeds from just authority, and is imperative; yet it may be refused. Among those who refused the summons (or rather invitation) of the Valar to Aman in the first years of the Elves, refusal of the summons to Mandos and the Halls of Waiting is, the Eldar say, frequent. It was less frequent, however, in ancient days, while Morgoth was in Arda, or his servant Sauron after him; for then the fëa unbodied would flee in terror of the Shadow to any refuge - unless it were already committed to the Darkness and passed then into its dominion. In like manner even some of the Eldar who had become corrupted refused the summons, and then had little power to resist the counter-summons of Morgoth."

How Isildur managed to curse them we shall never know. I think, he was a powerful sorcerer in his own right.

Isildur was too interested in magic for his own good. All his life he dealt with magical objects. While in Numenor, he meddled with the White Tree, then he brought a black STONE to Erech, all the way from the drowning Numenor! What the hell did he need it for, if not for magic? It is exactly at this stone that he cursed the whole people to wander after death, withholding the Gift of Men from them, the thing that even Mandos himself ever refused to do. And, finally, the Ring...

No, Isildur was much more controversial figure that the chronicles, revised by his relatives, let us to assume.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

the dead ... the oath breakers ...

how exactly did they fight?

I read somewhere that things died just from a touch from one of the dead, but I'm not sure if that was written by Tolkien, so it may be completley untrue.

[Butterbeer]

Gordis:

I don't think they had any material bodies, they were not like nazgul: they had no rings. They were ghosts, living entirely in the Spirit World
So they could hardly interact physically with the World of Light.

Yes, Serenoli is right, they must have scared everybody, that is all.

mmmm... but the barrow wights could ...????

serenoli

Hmmm... I don't think they ever mentioned it in the books... you don't think that maybe they just scared everyone to death? Seeing as they're dead, its possible...

i think the fear was a big factor, but surely not enough on it's own against whole armies ... eventually people catch on! especially in big armies in life or death situations ...

The gaffer:

Isildur invoked a curse on the people of Whereveritwas, which presumably prevented them from departing to wherever it is that Men's spirits go when they die. So, these were no ordinary Dead.

Perhaps a more relevant question would be how Isildur managed to curse them in this way and how Eru tolerated/implemented it. (One has to assume there was no Valar involved as they were in the dark about the fate of Men as well.)

extremely good point gaffer!

well, somehow he did! ... i'm sure Gordis will discuss this better than i can though .... but more importantly why was it 'tolerated' if that is quite the right question ...

by which i mean how was this moral, to curse both the king and his warriors yet also curse the women and innocent children ... to curse a whole society, and worse condemn even the innocent amongst them to many many untold years of doom?

surely, the valar were adrift from the fate of middle earth largely?

Gordis:

then he brought a black STONE to Erech, all the way from the drowning Numenor! What the hell did he need it for, if not for magic? It is exactly at this stone that he cursed the whole people to wander after death, withholding the Gift of Men from them, the thing that even Mandos himself ever refused to do. And, finally, the Ring...

extremely interesting (also) , this, Gor ...

is this tolikien on the one hand saying the noble line of men .. but men still ..arrogant in the lust for (or of) power? (ref to mandos)

But the stone of erech - very interesting ..what do we all think it actually was and signified??

...where's Olmer???

Telcontar Dunedain:

I read somewhere that things died just from a touch from one of the dead, but I'm not sure if that was written by Tolkien, so it may be completley untrue.

well, it would make more sense ... but then, how do they touch if they are only in the spirit world ....

what do you think TD?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Gordis:


mmmm... but the barrow wights could ...????

I think the Barrow wights were the same houseless spirits (of Men or Elves) that were prevented somehow (by magic, or curse), or refused to go to Mandos. But unlike the Men of Dunharrow, they have inhabited the bodies of long-dead Dunedain Kings in the Barrows. So they were like zombies, with bodies not their own, but MATERIAL, so they COULD interact with the living.