Character Analysis: Elendil, Isildur, Anarion

[Artanis]

A quick note on sources: "The Fall of Númenor and the Lost Road" can be found in HoME 5.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Isildur, I do not understand why he fled from Osgiliath. Why didn't he remain there and fight beside his brother?

I'm not sure myself, but it seems from the map that the river from Minas Ithil to the Anduin passes southern to Osgilliath. So, maybe the river carried him towards the sea. But then, I'd think he could sail against the river's direction, as he did when first came to Gondor, and my answer to this is, that or the river had more water and its flow was stronger, or that Isildur was in such a hurry, that he didn't notice where he's going.

[Valandil]

Isildur went north to Arnor intentionally, to ask Elendil to gather all the forces he could to help them hold off Sauron... and possibly defeat him 'once and for all'. Some speculate that Arnor was the greater kingdom at that time. I imagine Isildur consulted with Anarion before departing for Arnor and they both agreed to the arrangement. It makes sense for Isildur to bring his whole family along, since they had been forcibly evicted from their own home... and the High King they were going to see was father, father-in-law and grandfather anyway. I imagine he took some sort of retinue along... and would have needed at least a skeleton crew to man whatever ship they took... so who knows, maybe the whole entourage was 100 people or more... but that wouldn't seem unusual for one head-of-state traveling to see another - in ancient times.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Artanis

A quick note on sources: "The Fall of Númenor and the Lost Road" can be found in HoME 5.

Thanks Artanis... I've now added that. (and now I'll have to buy it! )

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Isildur went north to Arnor intentionally, to ask Elendil to gather all the forces he could to help them hold off Sauron... and possibly defeat him 'once and for all'. ....

But he could have sent a few messengers along to papa, instead of going himself. We all imagine him as a great warrior, so why didn't he stay behind and fight? I'm sure he and his followers could have done much for the defence of Osgiliath. I understand that he wanted his family to be safe, but it doesn't make sense to me that he should go himself. I can't help but feeling that it was a little ... ehh .... cowardly.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

However, I like to think that Elendil was strong enough to stand up to the Ring's powers. As to Anarion, we don't know a lot about him in order to make such a judgment..

The quetions of anyone in ME, (except PERHAPS Bombadill) in "How Long". Sooner or later it would bite any bearer in the ass. ELendil would fall as well, the question is could he get it to the "Crack of Doom" (never mind the viusal I get form THAT phrase,) and toss it in before he lost that much of his will.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Isildur went north to Arnor intentionally, to ask Elendil to gather all the forces he could to help them hold off Sauron... and possibly defeat him 'once and for all'. .

That would be like Churchill in 1940 moving to Cannada with his entire household and staff, to encourage mobilzation there, instead of sending an envoy or two. Elendil is going to mobilze and come anyway when he get the info, all that is needed is an occasional messenger in a small shoip with the current war knews. There should be something else going on here. Perhaps the Dual kinship thing was not working out so well? It was never reinstituted.

[Valandil]

Well... I'd say it was more like French leadership leaving France than Churchill leaving England. As a story device though, it was necessary to help give Isildur a compelling reason to go north after war's end... AND to allow for an heir to remain in the north, who was too young to go off and help fight the way. And THAT may be the biggest reason it happened. Even a messenger wouldn't really be needed... they had the palantiri, after all. We could even say that perhaps Elendil ordered him north... via palantiri (though it seems a bit of a stretch).

As for the previous arrangement not being re-established... that would have been hard to do since Anarion was dead. For Isildur to co-rule with Meneldil would have left Arnor's throne unoccupied... and IT was considered the senior and perhaps greater kingdom at the time. Plus, we're told that Isildur wanted to get away from the south after the war... (is that in UT maybe?)

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Valandil

As for the previous arrangement not being re-established... that would have been hard to do since Anarion was dead. For Isildur to co-rule with Meneldil would have left Arnor's throne unoccupied... and IT was considered the senior and perhaps greater kingdom at the time. Plus, we're told that Isildur wanted to get away from the south after the war... (is that in UT maybe?)

Isildur, I believe, was considered after the war as the head of the Dunedain, northern and southern. After he arranged the boarders and government of Gondor, he went north, and since he wanted to get there as fast as possible, and via Rivendell, he went up the Anduin river.
And it was 3 years after the war.

Originally Posted by Val

Well... I'd say it was more like French leadership leaving France than Churchill leaving England. As a story device though, it was necessary to help give Isildur a compelling reason to go north after war's end... AND to allow for an heir to remain in the north, who was too young to go off and help fight the way. And THAT may be the biggest reason it happened. Even a messenger wouldn't really be needed... they had the palantiri, after all. We could even say that perhaps Elendil ordered him north... via palantiri (though it seems a bit of a stretch).

He could leave the heir in Minas Anor or Osgiliath. They were as safe as Rivendell at the time, becasue if he won the alliance, he'd get to Rivendell anyway, sooner or later.
I don't think it fits France, becasue after all only half of Gondor... not even half of Gondor was conquered - only one fort, where Isildur lived. When I think of it now, it's very strange - why really didn't he stay to help in the war?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

He could leave the heir in Minas Anor or Osgiliath. They were as safe as Rivendell at the time, becasue if he won the alliance, he'd get to Rivendell anyway, sooner or later.

No - what I'm saying is that Tolkien wanted to leave an heir in the North, more or less cut-off from the South, after Isildur and his sons who were of age to fight were killed.

It's not obvious in the appendices and UT, etc - but from the 'Peoples of Middle-earth' segments, we're told that Valandil was actually born in the North - in Rivendell, after Isildur arrived there, in 3430 SA. So he was only 3 or 4 when his grandfather, father and brothers marched off to war. So... Isildur's trip to Arnor and the birth of Valandil up there helped set the stage for what Tolkien wanted to achieve, from an author's perspective.

Besides... Isildur DIDN'T get to Rivendell anyway, did he? If Valandil had been along at the Gladden Fields, there would have been no northern line and no Aragorn... and the Kings would have died out 1000 years before the War of the Ring.

Technically, Isildur stayed 2 years in Gondor, not 3... it was the year 2 when he departed from Osgiliath... but the year 3 when Ohtar brought the shards of Narsil and news of the attack to Rivendell.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

No - what I'm saying is that Tolkien wanted to leave an heir in the North, more or less cut-off from the South, after Isildur and his sons who were of age to fight were killed.

A possible explanation - but also a disappointing one. I'd like to keep the author away from this discussion.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Artanis

A possible explanation - but also a disappointing one. I'd like to keep the author away from this discussion.

Whew! OK then... (feel like I need a smiley that sticks out its head, blows its top and spins its head around! )

Alright then, how's this...

Anarion: OK... uh, I'll lead my forces here, as you ask... and then you'll lead your forces... here? Right?

Isildur: I've got a better idea. You take control of BOTH our forces. I'll take my family and personal guard up to speak with father... he'll know what to do. Plus, maybe we can get the Elves in on it.

Anarion: What? And leave me and my family to hold out here all alone? Couldn't we just send a messenger?? Or use the Palantiri?

Isildur: The Palantiri are too risky... I don't know if Sauron will find the one in Minas Ithil or not... I tried to hide it well before I fled. A single messenger could be intercepted. Besides, I would think it best to make the appeal to father personally.

Anarion: How long will you be away? Six months? A year? FIVE years?

Isildur: Maybe so...

Anarion: But why? You're a great leader. And each of your guard is a valiant warrior. Why should we take you so long away from the midst of the battle?

Isildur: Just a feeling I have... perhaps the foresight of the Dunedain.

Better? Huh?

[Artanis]

Now you remind me of someone who used to frequent the movies forum.

I'll let it pass though. After all, the poor fellow is Valandil's father.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

Isildur was 'good' until the end too, although he wore the Ring and kept it. It's like saying that Bilbo was evil 3 years after he got the Ring - which is not true. Isildur didn't fall to the darkness.

When you think of it, the Ring didn't really kill him: he jumped into the Anduin, and put the Rign to be invisible so tha the orcs wouldn't shoot him, but the Ring fell off his hand. But without the Ring, he was dead even before.

I agree with you. Isildur DID not fall to the darkness, and definately he was NOT a sinner. On contrary, even reading Tolkien's revision of the story in UT you can't shed off a feeling that something quite not clicking in : the great king, brave enough to stand up Sauron, making himself invisible and running away(!), deserting his sons which is getting killed in the fitful fight. If Boromir managed to pummel the whole brigade of orcs, then the invisible warrior of Numenorian blood could overcome an army, being practically invincible!
But he is leaping into the WATER! You can't find the better place to be noticed!!!! Look like he is a deserter who is getting justifiable punished. Something is not right in the picture.

But wait a minute, it is the story, as it had been told to Gandalf by Elrond, who also was not present at the battle-place.

What if the situation was quite different and the great warrior did not try to to save his skin making such stupid decision not to fight invisible, but to hide himself in the water? The situation like this could arise if ANOTHER Ringbearer was present.
What if Isildur, jumping in the water, was not trying to escape, but in desperation sacrified his life trying to HIDE the Ring using the best available at present situation source -the deep waters of Anduin?
Then everything falls in place.
No, Isildur was not a sinner, he was a HERO!!!

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Olmer

What if the situation was quite different and the great warrior did not try to to save his skin making such stupid decision not to fight invisible, but to hide himself in the water? The situation like this could arise if ANOTHER Ringbearer was present.
What if Isildur, jumping in the water, was not trying to escape, but in desperation sacrified his life trying to HIDE the Ring using the best available at present situation source -the deep waters of Anduin?
Then everything falls in place.
No, Isildur was not a sinner, he was a HERO!!!

Olmer... in the Unfinished Tales,you can see that although we don't know what happened for sure, but can guess. We know what happened from a man, Elendur's esquire (that Val mentioned in the beginning) named Estelmo. He heard the conversation between Isildur and Elendur, and so knew what he was planning - to run away. Estelmo survived the battle, and probably told Elrond what happened.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Valandil

AND to allow for an heir to remain in the north, who was too young to go off and help fight the way.
As for the previous arrangement not being re-established... that would have been hard to do since Anarion was dead.

Easier Plot device to send the one young son with one of the message delegations to the north.
The dual Kingship would have been continued with the eldest son of Isildur, Elendur, Taking his fiefs and position in Gondor, while he ruled as Elendil did in the Arnor. No attempt was made for the dual Kingship or to in any way keep Isildur personal demsne in his family, thaere has to be a strong reason to give up both the direct co-royal rights, overlaord rights and income, and their personal lands in the the south. These guys do not casually give up lands that they love and own. He must have decided that the dual Kingship was a failed struct for some reason, but even that does not explain givng the land and income of his directly held domains, which could have been managed by a steward or other delegate if not a son, sending him the lord's shares to his privy treasury.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

Easier Plot device to send the one young son with one of the message delegations to the north.
The dual Kingship would have been continued with the eldest son of Isildur, Elendur, Taking his fiefs and position in Gondor, while he ruled as Elendil did in the Arnor. No attempt was made for the dual Kingship or to in any way keep Isildur personal demsne in his family, thaere has to be a strong reason to give up both the direct co-royal rights, overlaord rights and income, and their personal lands in the the south. These guys do not casually give up lands that they love and own. He must have decided that the dual Kingship was a failed struct for some reason, but even that does not explain givng the land and income of his directly held domains, which could have been managed by a steward or other delegate if not a son, sending him the lord's shares to his privy treasury.

Then again, Sauron's forces had taken and occupied Minas Ithil. When the forces of the Last Alliance got it back, it may not have been fit to live in any more. Maybe only continued as a garrison for the next 2000 years.

And JRRT has Valandil actually born while Isildur is in the north.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

the "Crack of Doom" (never mind the viusal I get form THAT phrase,)

Hahahaha, that's funny!
Good point on that post, too

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

...The dual Kingship would have been continued with the eldest son of Isildur, Elendur, Taking his fiefs and position in Gondor, while he ruled as Elendil did in the Arnor. No attempt was made for the dual Kingship or to in any way keep Isildur personal demsne in his family, thaere has to be a strong reason to give up both the direct co-royal rights, overlaord rights and income, and their personal lands in the the south. These guys do not casually give up lands that they love and own. He must have decided that the dual Kingship was a failed struct for some reason, but even that does not explain givng the land and income of his directly held domains, which could have been managed by a steward or other delegate if not a son, sending him the lord's shares to his privy treasury.

(well - even after I refuted you earlier, Beren said you had a good point, so I better try again! )

I still don't necessarily think so... he was giving up lands which had been ravaged by Sauron's forces for 5 years... and by war for the next 7. He was gaining greater (more extensive) lands which had been untouched by Sauron and by war. By arrangement, he was still the overlord ("High King") above all Gondor, as well as Arnor. As to leaving Elendur to co-rule with Meneldil, perhaps he was feeling the effects of family separation from his own father ruling in the North, while he co-ruled in Gondor... and wanted to keep his immediate family close at hand.

Maybe that doesn't do enough to prove it to you, but hopefully I can at least cast some doubt that Isildur had definitively decided the 'co-ruling' arrangement had not worked. Maybe he felt it worked fine with him and Anarion... but didn't care to try it out with his son (in a ravaged portion of Gondor) co-ruling with Meneldil (whose land escaped direct contact with the effects of war).

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

Olmer... in the Unfinished Tales,you can see that although we don't know what happened for sure, but can guess. .

Right,Radagast The Brown,we don't know what happened for sure, but can guess, and guesses sometimes could be misleading.
What happened we know mostly from the words of Elrond. How realistic is his story?
And can we accept the account of Isildur’s death as it told by men who survived the whole ordeal and miraculously turned up in anywhere else, but Imladris?

I made a whole essay in defense of Isildur’s honour, but here I’m giving just my analysis of information about the eyewitnesses provided in the books.


Only three of his people came ever back over the mountains after long wandering. ( Silmarills)
Three of them somehow got together, even if the two of them was sent away much earlier. From that people came an information how and where Isildur and his men had been ambushed. But it was a contradictory information:
Isildur was overwhelmed by a host of Orcs that lay in wait in the Misty Mountains , and they descended upon him at unawares in his camp between the Greenwood and the Great River, night to Loeg Ningloron, the Gladden fields, for he was heedless and set no guard, deeming that all his foes were overthrown ( Silmarills)
Than, it’s another version, which probably, has been told by another “witness”:
[B]They were passing the north borders of the Gladden Fields, marching along the path that led to Tranduil realm …they heard the hideous cries of Orcs, and saw them issuing from the Forest… (UT)
Look like somebody made a fib. But maybe it was a fib altogether?

Let’s see what we know about this guys…
The first attack, when Isildur sent Ohtar away, happened in the late afternoon: “Save it (Elendil sword) from the capture by all means that you can find, and at all costs; even at the cost of being held a coward who deserted me. Take your companion and flee”
Then Ohtar (with companion)… fled down into the dark valley. (UT)
It was just two ways to go - North and South along Anduin, and by the night he and his companion, if they would take for South, would be quite far away from the danger, because even if Orcs marked their flight they took no heed (UT) , and by the time of the second attack , when night had come, Isildur’s men had marched one mile farther away.
How come that Ohtar turned up in the North, instead of taking relatively safe road back to Gondor? Was he disobeyed the King’s order and instead of fleeing, saving the heirloom, was following Isildur, hiding behind the bushes, watching the slaughter of the people who regarded him as “dear“ to the whole family? An esquire is more than a bodyguard, he is a man whom you trust your arms, the man who obliged to put this arms in the hand of his lord even being dead himself . Why he did not come to Melendil?
What was holding him forso long the whole year to get to Rivendell, while even at starting point Isildur planned to reach it in 40 days by an unhurried march?
It could be explained that for any esquire it was a great dishonor to outlive his lord on the battle-field, for the shame will be not only on you, but on all your kin. Better be dead!
Was a possibility of such outcome made him to take the most dangerous road - the High Pass, where Sauron sent such Orc-troops of the Red Eye, as he could spare to harry any forces that attempted to shorten their road by crossing the Mountains. (UT) They could let a big army to pass by, but 200 Dunedains was not holding them back. According to elve's intelligence, as it has been found out later, the Orcs of the Mountains were stiffened and commanded by grim servants of Barad-Dur, sent out long before to watch the passes (UT)
However if they remained alert and watchful, determined to attack any companies of Elves or Men that they outnumbered (UT), then Othar & Co just did not have any chance to walk through the High Pass without being noticed and hunted by Orcs, unless… they would pass with very numerous armed company of Men or… Elves
The chances of another big army of Men within an year passing through Cirith Forn en Andras was zero to nothing, but the Elves…

Let’s examine another consideration: the possibility that Ohtar crossed the Misty Mountains at another point - the Redhorn Gate.Crossing Anduin and the very treacherous mountain pass would definitely take more time, but not the whole year, because from Hollin to Rivendell just 16-17days of walk, and , being Isildur‘s esquire and “dear“ to his family, he certainly knew the way to the Queen’s place of abode, probably, had been visiting Imladris for numerous time with his lord .He just could not get lost, the land over there was safe for traveling, he did not get wounded in the fight , then how to explain that it took him so long to bring the news about the ambush of the king?

What if the story , told by Ohtar, in reality was totally different?
What if he DID NOT CHOOSE to take this way, but he was FORCED to go North, then all irrationality of his movement has a simple explanation.
Nobody was sent away, Ohtar had been wounded or stunned, just like Estelmo, while heroically fighting by the side of his king , and was laying uncounscious on the battle-field until had been noticed.
So Ohtar and other two men did not come to Imladris, they had been brought up! They were needed as an eyewitnesses for the “orc’s hideous manslaughter“.
We know the names of two “eyewitnesses” - Ohtar and Estelmo, who , most likely, spent the whole year in the elve’s dungeons and at the end brought out their life by falsifying the truth. Who was the third men we will never know, because he , probably, refused to “cooperate” and was quietly eliminated.

I understand that this is very heavy accusation, but I came to such conclusion because of the information given to us by the author himself.