the original breaking of the fellowship - Page 2

Cirdan · 03-13-2002, 10:17 AM

frodo irritating? could be a problem since he is the protagonist. I don't see the link to the valar, sorry. many characters have similar traits and some human traits are not well represented )for good reason). It's clever but falls a bit short. the numerology thing is very common. 1, 3, 7, 12 9

well, john lennon liked it, but... good thread!

Dwarven Sen · 03-13-2002, 10:26 AM

can you blame me for finding him irritating he just complains i mean hobbits are annoying but he just takes the biscuit pip and merry become knights and it takes both sam and gollum to keep him going fool of a ringbearer. Mortal men are abit boring and weak elfs dwarfs maiar valar all cool but men no

Cirdan · 03-13-2002, 10:42 AM

no blame. I think he could complain a bit what with all the wraith stabbing and troll spearing, and spider biting, and the death march up an active volcano. I like all the characters because the story wouldn't be the same without them. I some fabulous elf lord rode an eagle to orodruin and threw the ring in it wouldn't be much of a story. I must say that Saruman is my least favorite character... bit of a turncoat.

Dwarven Sen · 03-13-2002, 10:49 AM

Excuse me he wasn't the only fellow with problems you know gandalf went and fell down a chasm i knew it would be an american that took the most pitiful hobbits side you can't even play rugby. I prefer dwarfs to elves but if a dwarf fell off an eagle it would be dwarf jam. I totally agree about saruman though and may best friend elf master xk agrees about great elves but she's in an art lesson now so i'll talk for her

Cirdan · 03-13-2002, 11:29 AM

Your excused.

Vardasoroniel · 03-13-2002, 12:12 PM

it's fun to try to match up the members of the Aratar and the FOTR, but let's not get too wound up in a point by point dissection of the similarities/dissimilarities of the Aratar vs the FOTR.

frodo, et al, are not meant to be reincarnations of the 8 chief valar in the third age; and boromir is certainly no melkor/morgoth in his self-oriented pursuit of his own aims for the ring.

what interested me is the similarity in the overall desired outcome of each group - the FOTR and the Aratar. both were deeply concerned in what was best for the peoples and places of middle earth; both groups were desirous of restoring harmony. associated with each group was a character whose aims for middle earth were not in line with the supposed aims of the group as a whole. this character brought great discord to each group. but, in the FOTR, this character, boromir was able to eventually see how his self-oriented view needed to be put aside for the greater good. he was 'redeemed', as it were, through his epiphany after his confrontation with frodo, and was able through his subsequent actions to regain his place in the fellowship.

this was a step that we do not see, as yet, in the relationship of Melkor to the other Valar. & what i was originally wondering was whether the Fellowhip in the FOTR reflected a possibility that Melkor would/could come back into harmony with the other Valar.

Ñólendil · 03-13-2002, 08:25 PM

Quote:

but i just don't think frodo is a good ulmo

I only associate the two because of Frodo's fixation with the Sea.

Quote:

I think he could complain a bit what with all the wraith stabbing and troll spearing,

Uruk spearing. It's a Troll in the movie.

Dwarven Sen · 03-18-2002, 07:50 AM

Frodo did not have a fixation with the sea
merry said he was good with water
if anything frodo should learn to stay away because of his parents and excuse me mister nolendil if we arent accurate enough for you
gandalf should be mandos because of the fellowship he sees the furthest all the way down the chasm under the bridge of khazad dum in fact he worked for lorien and nienna mandos siblings

merry is more of a nienna in rohan all he ever does is mope pippin finds people to wrestle with and is more brave so hes a tulkas or orome

Ñólendil · 03-18-2002, 06:28 PM

You're inaccuracy is certainly excused.

I'm just a nit-picker, pay me no mind.

I do hold that Frodo had a fixation with the sea. Read The Sea-Bell in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, or Frodo's dreams in Tom's house.

Wayfarer · 03-18-2002, 09:49 PM

Frodo was not exactly fixated with the see itself, but he longed for the sea as a passage to the west.

That's my opinion.

Ñólendil · 03-18-2002, 09:52 PM

You're probably right.

Wayfarer · 03-18-2002, 09:58 PM

What? Is that surprise?

Ñólendil · 03-18-2002, 11:41 PM

Is what surprise? I feel so confused.

Dwarven Sen · 03-19-2002, 04:47 AM

Its alright to like the sea but I wouldn't say he was obsessed I think that everybody has an oppurtunity to be rightoccasionally apart from me whose thick

Vardasoroniel · 03-19-2002, 01:27 PM

i suggested the frodo as ulmo analogy because like ulmo, frodo 'listened' to the voice of evil(the ring as it spoke to him) and gave in to it for a while, as did ulmo who listened to the lies of morgoth and believed them for a while.

Ñólendil · 03-19-2002, 09:01 PM

Oh, that was Ulmo's servant Ossë, not Ulmo himself. Or anyway as far as I can remember.

Wayfarer · 03-19-2002, 10:28 PM

Yes. That was Osse.

Dwarven Sen · 03-20-2002, 08:35 AM

I think that of all the valar the one most likely to listen to morgoth would be aule but he wouldn't he is cool because he created the dwarves. The point I think I am trying to get at is that melkoe was the weakest of the valar because he gave in to the power. Only some of the maiar did aswell but some were good and were strong

Vardasoroniel · 03-21-2002, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Oh, that was Ulmo's servant Ossë, not Ulmo himself. Or anyway as far as I can remember.

yes, you're right (smacks herself in the forehead!) it was ossë who got taken in by morgoth. sometimes i get those water guys confused

i think, i originally, thought frodo might coincide with ulmo because he was the one described as being 'alone'. and i had remembered that line about 'to bear a ring of power is to be alone'.

Dwarven Sen · 04-08-2002, 03:30 AM

If we are talking about being alone, then Aragorn would be a good Ulmo because he wandered the wild alone for close to sixty years. However Gandalf was alone for close to 3000 years. You choose

03-13-2002, 10:17 AM	#21
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	frodo irritating? could be a problem since he is the protagonist. I don't see the link to the valar, sorry. many characters have similar traits and some human traits are not well represented )for good reason). It's clever but falls a bit short. the numerology thing is very common. 1, 3, 7, 12 9 well, john lennon liked it, but... good thread! __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

03-13-2002, 10:26 AM	#22
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	can you blame me for finding him irritating he just complains i mean hobbits are annoying but he just takes the biscuit pip and merry become knights and it takes both sam and gollum to keep him going fool of a ringbearer. Mortal men are abit boring and weak elfs dwarfs maiar valar all cool but men no __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

03-13-2002, 10:42 AM	#23
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	no blame. I think he could complain a bit what with all the wraith stabbing and troll spearing, and spider biting, and the death march up an active volcano. I like all the characters because the story wouldn't be the same without them. I some fabulous elf lord rode an eagle to orodruin and threw the ring in it wouldn't be much of a story. I must say that Saruman is my least favorite character... bit of a turncoat. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

03-13-2002, 10:49 AM	#24
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	Excuse me he wasn't the only fellow with problems you know gandalf went and fell down a chasm i knew it would be an american that took the most pitiful hobbits side you can't even play rugby. I prefer dwarfs to elves but if a dwarf fell off an eagle it would be dwarf jam. I totally agree about saruman though and may best friend elf master xk agrees about great elves but she's in an art lesson now so i'll talk for her __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

03-13-2002, 11:29 AM	#25
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Your excused. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

03-13-2002, 12:12 PM	#26
Vardasoroniel Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: misty oregon Posts: 95	it's fun to try to match up the members of the Aratar and the FOTR, but let's not get too wound up in a point by point dissection of the similarities/dissimilarities of the Aratar vs the FOTR. frodo, et al, are not meant to be reincarnations of the 8 chief valar in the third age; and boromir is certainly no melkor/morgoth in his self-oriented pursuit of his own aims for the ring. what interested me is the similarity in the overall desired outcome of each group - the FOTR and the Aratar. both were deeply concerned in what was best for the peoples and places of middle earth; both groups were desirous of restoring harmony. associated with each group was a character whose aims for middle earth were not in line with the supposed aims of the group as a whole. this character brought great discord to each group. but, in the FOTR, this character, boromir was able to eventually see how his self-oriented view needed to be put aside for the greater good. he was 'redeemed', as it were, through his epiphany after his confrontation with frodo, and was able through his subsequent actions to regain his place in the fellowship. this was a step that we do not see, as yet, in the relationship of Melkor to the other Valar. & what i was originally wondering was whether the Fellowhip in the FOTR reflected a possibility that Melkor would/could come back into harmony with the other Valar. __________________ Ai na vedui . . . Mae govannen!

03-18-2002, 07:50 AM	#28
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	Frodo did not have a fixation with the sea merry said he was good with water if anything frodo should learn to stay away because of his parents and excuse me mister nolendil if we arent accurate enough for you gandalf should be mandos because of the fellowship he sees the furthest all the way down the chasm under the bridge of khazad dum in fact he worked for lorien and nienna mandos siblings merry is more of a nienna in rohan all he ever does is mope pippin finds people to wrestle with and is more brave so hes a tulkas or orome __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

03-18-2002, 06:28 PM	#29
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	You're inaccuracy is certainly excused. I'm just a nit-picker, pay me no mind. I do hold that Frodo had a fixation with the sea. Read The Sea-Bell in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, or Frodo's dreams in Tom's house. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

03-18-2002, 09:49 PM	#30
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Frodo was not exactly fixated with the see itself, but he longed for the sea as a passage to the west. That's my opinion. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

03-18-2002, 09:52 PM	#31
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	You're probably right. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

03-18-2002, 09:58 PM	#32
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	What? Is that surprise? __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

03-18-2002, 11:41 PM	#33
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Is what surprise? I feel so confused. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

03-19-2002, 04:47 AM	#34
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	Its alright to like the sea but I wouldn't say he was obsessed I think that everybody has an oppurtunity to be rightoccasionally apart from me whose thick __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

03-19-2002, 01:27 PM	#35
Vardasoroniel Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: misty oregon Posts: 95	i suggested the frodo as ulmo analogy because like ulmo, frodo 'listened' to the voice of evil(the ring as it spoke to him) and gave in to it for a while, as did ulmo who listened to the lies of morgoth and believed them for a while. __________________ Ai na vedui . . . Mae govannen!

03-19-2002, 09:01 PM	#36
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Oh, that was Ulmo's servant Ossë, not Ulmo himself. Or anyway as far as I can remember. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

03-19-2002, 10:28 PM	#37
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Yes. That was Osse. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

03-20-2002, 08:35 AM	#38
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	I think that of all the valar the one most likely to listen to morgoth would be aule but he wouldn't he is cool because he created the dwarves. The point I think I am trying to get at is that melkoe was the weakest of the valar because he gave in to the power. Only some of the maiar did aswell but some were good and were strong __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

04-08-2002, 03:30 AM	#40
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	If we are talking about being alone, then Aragorn would be a good Ulmo because he wandered the wild alone for close to sixty years. However Gandalf was alone for close to 3000 years. You choose __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

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