The Lord of the Rings discussion: Chapter 2, The Shadow of the Past

[Twista]

Just off the topic: is there not a sub forum being made to host all these new threads?

[Rían]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
This Chapter contains one of my favourite quotes:

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."

One of mine, too.


And the tie-in to the earthy wisdom of the pub remark in Chpt 1 is great, too, as Gaffer said.

[azalea]

Yes, Valandil, you put it very well.

If on the one hand, you want to mention "BTW, in UT there is an interesting bit that references this very incident" or something along those lines, including some main details (is that oxymoronic?), that's fine. But if you start using UT and other texts to support your argument when debating, I would ask that you take it into another thread here (there happens to be a current thread about Gandalf's motivation where it would be appropriate to use the above quote).

I hope I'm not sounding like a broken record (if anyone is too young to understand that simile, ask your parents ), but I can assure you that when those kinds of references start getting thrown back and forth, members who aren't as familiar with them get lost -- the references are meaningless to them, and we lose their interest in the project. So I hope this makes sense, and that by having this stipulation I don't then discourage those more familiar with "greater ME."

It also forces participation in other threads, which keeps the forum nice and lively. In picking out one specific from the chapter and debating about it (or simply discussing) in its own thread, we keep the chapter threads "general" yet interesting, and avoid having pages full of posts going back and forth about one topic. I hope this answers your question. When in doubt, go ahead and throw the reference in, but if someone starts to debate with you, find or open a thread about it.

[brownjenkins]

great job JD!

you covered it well and touched upon one point i've argued here before... that gandalf knew (not suspected, but knew) frodo would be unable to toss the ring into the cracks of doom

some don't like to see it this way, since it points to a kind of failing on frodo's part (who we come to love so much)... but in many ways, i think this is what puts tolkien above later authors who jumped on the "little guy saves the world" bandwagon... it makes it more "real"... no strength of character could overcome the one ring, or else gandalf certainly would have risked taking it himself... a quick flyby and drop off over mount doom with one of his eagle friends

gandalf was following his heart, and trusting in fate, or eru... he knew this was the right course to take, even if he did not see any possibility for success in any logical way

olmer ~ certainly an interesting point of view... but if i am to believe it i'll ask again more clearly: what would gandalf's motive be if things were truely as you put them?

one last bit which is somewhat trivial but has always bothered me, who wrote (other than jrrt, of course ):

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

obviously the part in bold was penned by sauron when he made the ring, but what about the rest?

as i understand it, after he made the one, he went to war with the elves and presumably took the other sixteen... then distributed them in disguise to the dwarves and men... i never pictured sauron as a poet, but if he didn't write the rest of the verse, was it the elves?

it would have to be after the war of the last alliance, which is presumably the only time they would have seen the ring inscription... and even then, why would they mention their own three rings which they tried so hard to keep secret?

i may just be looking at an angle that jrrt didn't consider, but was wondering if anyone else had ever thought about this

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
great job JD!

Thank you - I'm glad everyone likes it.

you covered it well and touched upon one point i've argued here before... that gandalf knew (not suspected, but knew) frodo would be unable to toss the ring into the cracks of doom

some don't like to see it this way, since it points to a kind of failing on frodo's part (who we come to love so much)... but in many ways, i think this is what puts tolkien above later authors who jumped on the "little guy saves the world" bandwagon... it makes it more "real"... no strength of character could overcome the one ring, or else gandalf certainly would have risked taking it himself... a quick flyby and drop off over mount doom with one of his eagle friends

gandalf was following his heart, and trusting in fate, or eru... he knew this was the right course to take, even if he did not see any possibility for success in any logical way

Yeah - I agree, I don't see how Gandalf could not know that for Frodo the biggest test was going to be actually destroying the Ring. Throughout the book Gandald always indicates some scepticism to the success of the quest - but he also knows it's the only way to go. It was either hiding it and waiting for the inevitability of Sauron massing all his armies and ultimately destroying them all, using the Ring and then setting another darklord in Sauron's place or go with the nearly impossible - but only true solution - of destroying it.

one last bit which is somewhat trivial but has always bothered me, who wrote (other than jrrt, of course ):

obviously the part in bold was penned by sauron when he made the ring, but what about the rest?

as i understand it, after he made the one, he went to war with the elves and presumably took the other sixteen... then distributed them in disguise to the dwarves and men... i never pictured sauron as a poet, but if he didn't write the rest of the verse, was it the elves?

it would have to be after the war of the last alliance, which is presumably the only time they would have seen the ring inscription... and even then, why would they mention their own three rings which they tried so hard to keep secret?

i may just be looking at an angle that jrrt didn't consider, but was wondering if anyone else had ever thought about this

Interesting - I never really thought about it. I have always thought it was the elves though who wrote it. I don't think the fact that they hid the Three Rings from Sauron as being a problem. He knew they existed - he just didn't know where they were. The elves made no secret of them before he created the One Ring. It wasn't until afterward that they needed to hide the Rings.

I have also thought that maybe it was men who wrote the poem, although I doubt it actually. The only reason I think it might be them is because of the "doomed to die" part. But Elves also didn't look too highly on the dying of men (some gift) either.

[Fat middle]

I agree you've done an excellent job, JD!

About the ring verse, I don't know why but I've always believed it was written by the elven-smiths of Eregion, though Sauron must be the author of the lines included in the ring.

But now I'm pondering if it could be one of the Nine men whom Sauron gave rings who wrote the verse.

[mithrand1r]

JD,

A very good job of summarizing chapter 2 SOTP.

I have started re-reading FOTR so I can provide some input into the discussion.

So far (From chapter 2 alone) I do not see Gandalf as manipulating events/people around him for some other alternate mysterious purpose. Olmer does bring some interesting different ideas and thoughts about LOTR.

Fat Middle,

Interesting idea regarding the verse

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

[Valandil]

A few points:

* STRONGLY agree that this chapter and 'Council of Elrond' are two of the most important chapters... SO MUCH information is given!
* Interesting to note that Sam & Sandyman in their discussion at The Green Dragon somewhat parallel (at least in attitudes) the conversation their fathers (Gaffer and The Miller) had 17 years earlier at The Ivy Bush.
* Glad you picked up on the first mention of Aragorn... it still surprises me, with this and several other hints dropped before we meet him, that I was TOTALLY SURPRISED upon the appearance of Aragorn the first time I read this book. The hints are there, but somehow they just don't jump out at you on the first reading. (EDIT: I guess I was more surprised at who he turned out to be - though hints are dropped for that as well)
* Twista - be patient about a 'sub-forum' - I imagine that will come later.
* Authorship of the poem - I'd definitely say the Elves. I don't have a problem with mention of their Three Rings being in it - I doubt the poem was very widely known.
* OK - some other 'quotes of wisdom from Chapter 2' (besides the one GrayMouser gives about giving life or death to those who deserve them):

"So do I, and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us." - Gandalf, in response to Frodo's: "I wish it need not have happened in my time."

and

"Such questions cannot be answered. You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess: not for power or wisdom, at any rate. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have." - Gandalf, in response to Frodo's: "... Why did it come to me? Why was I chosen?"

I also like the rest of Gandalf's quote mentioned by GM... the hope he holds for Gollum's very redemption, slim as the chance may seem. And the portion that follows immediately after the 'dealing out judgement': "For even the very wise cannot see all ends." Gandalf's own wisdom was imperfect and he knew it. He did the best he could to discern the right thing, and then did his best to do it.

[GrayMouser]

And...

"But pity stayed his hand.
'It's a pity I've run out of bullets,' he thought."

Ooops, wrong book

[The Gaffer]

That's an interesting comment on the verse; I hadn't thought of it before.

Given that Gandalf recites it in

the Black Speech at Rivendell, perhaps it was written in that language to begin with, presumably by Sauron or one of his flunkies.

I agree that the pity quote is one of the best from the book.

[brownjenkins]

maybe sauron was really just a disgruntled poet... envious of all those elven muses

[The Gaffer]

Yeah, I hear that in the Second Age all the girls went for the elven poets. Clearly he got the knock-back off off Galadriel and decided to wreak vengeance throught Middle-Earth instead.

If only he'd found a nice girl and settled down.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Yeah, I hear that in the Second Age all the girls went for the elven poets. Clearly he got the knock-back off off Galadriel and decided to wreak vengeance throught Middle-Earth instead.

If only he'd found a nice girl and settled down.

Yeah - but SHE went for the short round guy in the bright blue jacket and yellow boots and hat!

[Olmer]

Yeah, I hear that in the Second Age all the girls went for the elven poets. Clearly he got the knock-back off off Galadriel and decided to wreak vengeance throught Middle-Earth instead.

He-he.The Innovator, Adviser, Teacher, Poet, besides being a nice looking and VERY popular guy, he had a very good reason to believe that he woun't get turned down, even made in advance the wedding ring .
Too bad that the nice girl of his liking got scared of the life-timeless commitment .

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Valandil
Yeah - but SHE went for the short round guy in the bright blue jacket and yellow boots and hat!

Sounds like we've got the basis of some tabloid fiction there. Tom, Goldberry and Sauron in the eternal love triangle. Tom and Goldberry settle down to mowing the grass and talking to trees, Sauron we know about. No wonder JRRT was so coy about them.

[cee2lee2]

"bumping" for other latecomers, like me

[Beren3000]

I'm currently rereading LOTR and there's a part in this chapter where Gandalf tells Frodo that Gollum was probably sent out of Mordor on some "errand of mischief". I wonder what that was. Do you think Sauron sent him to hint the Ring?

[The Gaffer]

I think the suggestion is that he knew that Gollum was as likely as anyone to find the ring, and that Sauron would then be able to nab it.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah. He set him free and them followed him to find the Ring. This wasn't helped when Aragorn captured him.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Yeah. He set him free and them followed him to find the Ring.

Where does it say that Gollum was followed by Sauron?