The Lord of the Rings Discussion Project: Book III Ch. III - The Uruk-Hai

[Twista]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

One of the best things about this chapter is the last line. Don't have the book handy but it's something like "the smoke rose high to the heavens and was seen by many eyes", giving us a hint of the intrigue to come. It might suggest to Saruman, for example, that the Rohirrim, and therefore Theoden, may have found the Ring.

Yes the last line is exactly that..

I dont think that it really meant that, it could do, it's just what angle you look at it from. If we are looking at it from your point ofd view, yes Saruman well could assume that the Hobbits captured by the Uruks were in possesion of the ring, and hence Rohan now held it. It could be said that Sauron assumes the same, although that is off no conciqunce as he belives he will come back into his possesion at some point in time.

But note that just before this line, it notes:

...and no news of it (this raid) ever came back to either Mordor or Isenguard

From this we could assume that the smoke was mearly a pillar of success for the race of men, and for the greater good.

Its hard to interperate, you either look into it as far as you can, or just look at it at face value.

[Nurvingiel]

Even though no one was left alive to tell him, I think Saruman would figure out what happened when his army didn't come back. Maybe he even went to investigate himself - maybe that's why Gimli saw him in the forest. (Unless it was a confused and newly returned Gandalf.)

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Twista

Yes the last line is exactly that..

I dont think that it really meant that, it could do, it's just what angle you look at it from. If we are looking at it from your point ofd view, yes Saruman well could assume that the Hobbits captured by the Uruks were in possesion of the ring, and hence Rohan now held it. It could be said that Sauron assumes the same, although that is off no conciqunce as he belives he will come back into his possesion at some point in time.

But note that just before this line, it notes:



From this we could assume that the smoke was mearly a pillar of success for the race of men, and for the greater good.

Its hard to interperate, you either look into it as far as you can, or just look at it at face value.

I don't agree, Twista. I think it's highly significant, especially if either Saruman or Sauron believed that Rohan had the Ring. As Gandalf points out in the White Rider, what Sauron most fears is that someone else decides to use the Ring against him. So, an attack on Rohan is urgently needed.

Remember also that Aragorn turns up at Edoras, Wormtongue hears the title he claims, and then returns to Isengard. So Saruman knows about the Heir of Isildur, and so does Sauron.

Of course, later on we have Pippin looking in the Palantir, we find out that Saruman has been withholding information from his Master, and it all culminates with Aragorn wresting control of the Palantir from Sauron.

I think it's very subtle, very much in the background, but in this chapter we get the early strokes of the political backdrop to the Two Towers that makes sense of the whole War of the Ring. It's really top stuff, you know!

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

And did he [Grishnákh] really think he would find it[the Ring] on Merry or Pippin?

When the Hobbits had teased him so much to the point where he takes them with him, Grishnákh mentions something about seaching to the bone. That one line indicated to me that the orc really must have thought Merry or Pippin had the Ring, instead of merely knowing who else held it.

What is the significance of the varying ‘tribes’ of orcs?

Thanks to Olmer's interesting theories about orcs being in league with the Elves of Lothlórien, I've been paying more attention to the bits about the orcs. It was actually quite fun trying to figure out the composition and allegiances of the diverse group of orcs that was travelling to Isengard. I'm not sure that I've figured it out completely but my respect for Tolkien has grown even more that he made an effort to bring so much diversity into this group of orcs. The different sizes, motives, attitudes, speeches even. This is what makes a writer great.

What also caught my attention was, even orcs are often discribed as 'wretched creatures', they themselves don't seem to feel so wretched at all. Okay, the orc's life is a hard one, you have to be careful - or daring- enough to keep your head on your shoulders. But they also seem to have a lot of 'fun' so to speak, even if their humour is somewhat darkish.

Why did Grishnákh reveal that a Winged Nâzgul awaited the orcs on the Eastern side of Anduin?

I think to instill some fear into Uglúk in the hope that the large orc would refrain of going to Isengard.

Was it a wise decision to plunge into Fangorn?

If looked at it afterwards, yes. If they hadn't gone into Fangorn as they did, a lot of important things would never have come to pass. When looked at it on the moment, I suppose they didn't have many other options. The wood was near, offered shelter from prying eyes and might have been a better chance to come across food than in the open field.

Would the riders have waited till dawn to attack if Mauhúr’s group had not arrived?

The memory is a little bit hazy, but didn't they wait until dawn for the full attack? I thought they beat off Mauhúr's orcs and then resumed their watch until the light was better.

When about to plunge into Fangorn, the hobbits see Uglúk charging up the slope. Did he see the hobbits, or was he madly running for his life?

I've been wondering about that too. I assume he didn't see them. Mainly because he wouldn't be expecting them there and because he had other issues on his hand. But also because the Hobbit's grey Elven mantles must have made them very difficult to see.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

One of the best things about this chapter is the last line. Don't have the book handy but it's something like "the smoke rose high to the heavens and was seen by many eyes", giving us a hint of the intrigue to come. It might suggest to Saruman, for example, that the Rohirrim, and therefore Theoden, may have found the Ring.

Indeed, it opens the door for speculation and new events.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

You make some very good points Gaffer. Éomer does contribute to the Quest more than he knows. I think it makes sense that he is disobedient though. It's not just random chance - he's not one to sit idly by while his king is poisoned by Grima's words, and orcs attack his country unchecked.


I wonder how he got this extra information?


Classic evil overlord rule - promote competent people but don't trust them too much.

It is interesting to note Tolkien's structural parallels in the book. On the one hand we have hobbits captured by orcs being borne to Saruman and but for the disobedience of an heir, who is heir only because the one ahead of him for succession died in battle against orcs, to his "father" who upon hearing of the disobedience cruelly punishes Eomer.

On the other hand, a few days later, Frodo and Sam are taken prisoner by Gondor and to be borne off to Denethor and but for the disobedience of an heir who is heir only because the one ahead of him for succession died in battle against orcs, to his father who upon hearing of the disobedience cruelly punishes Faramir. Or am I pushing things a bit far?
FB

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

It is interesting to note Tolkien's structural parallels in the book. On the one hand we have hobbits captured by orcs being borne to Saruman and but for the disobedience of an heir, who is heir only because the one ahead of him for succession died in battle against orcs, to his "father" who upon hearing of the disobedience cruelly punishes Eomer.

On the other hand, a few days later, Frodo and Sam are taken prisoner by Gondor and to be borne off to Denethor and but for the disobedience of an heir who is heir only because the one ahead of him for succession died in battle against orcs, to his father who upon hearing of the disobedience cruelly punishes Faramir. Or am I pushing things a bit far?
FB

I think it is an interesting parallel. You can back it with the text, which is a plus. However, you probably are pushing it too far though, IMO.

[The Gaffer]

Hello walthingie and welcome; there's an Introductions thread in General Messages where you can, er, introduce yourself if you like.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Classic evil overlord rule - promote competent people but don't trust them too much.

Yes, and the other aspect which is illustrated here is the personal ambition and infighting amongst evil cohorts. Grishnakh clearly wants to make a name for himself and sees the hobbits as an opportunity. Had he been disciplined and "on message" he would not have tried it on, and the hobbits would likely have perished.

[Harad]

Hello all. This is not one of the original discussion points..butt..one thing that always intriqued me is the relative overall strength of Grishnakh and Ugluk. Clearly in the chapter, G's party is outnumbered and thus the agenda is set by U. During the confrontation U decapitates a couple of the Northern maggots and G lams. However what if they had gone head to head? U is probably physically stronger and bigger, but can you discount G's cunning, fangs, and long dangling arms? In terms of survival, G had a better idea than U and if not for a lucky shot by a Yellow Hair, might have made it. So what do you think: G or U?

[The Gaffer]

In a square go, Ugluk every time. The hobbits were being taken to Isengard against Grishnakh's will. If he had been able, he would have killed Ugluk to prevent that from happening.

[Curubethion]

Ugluk. G was an orc, so he had cunning and malice. However, U had pure ruthlessness and brute strength. In a duel, he would just hammer incessantly at G.