The Lord of the Rings Discussion, Book II, Chapter 1

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

This part makes me wondered why Gandalf chose Frodo as a Ringbearer. Even though circumstance made Frodo the most convenient, Gandalf could have selected someone else, had he felt the need. Did Gandalf just have a good feeling about Frodo, which he doubts in this scene?

Where's that bit about how Gandalf thought Frodo was the best hobbit in the Shire? Is that in LOTR, or somewhere else?

Maybe he only really felt like he could relax in Rivendell (and later Lothlorien), which is most likely very wise.

Yes, I got the feeling those were the only 2 places that Aragorn felt (and rightly) that he could relax. Poor guy! I hope Arwen made it worth it for him

Arty - Thanks for the Legolas quote - I had forgotten that one!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Where's that bit about how Gandalf thought Frodo was the best hobbit in the Shire? Is that in LOTR, or somewhere else?

Thats in The BArrow Downs I think when it looks like Frodo is going to die and Sam, Merry and Pippin have been captured.

Originally Posted by Artanis

No, if you read the poem carefully you will see that there are an emerald, and a Silmaril.

Well I don't think that it was an Elessar.

[The Gaffer]

Very good job, BJ Sorry I've not been around to contribute more to the discussion.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Many Meetings
The wizard tells Frodo how the ring, when worn, places him half within the world of the wraiths. An unseen world which we learn that elves such as Glorfindel, who have seen the Blessed Realm, have a special awareness of. This would seem to point to the world of the spirit, or 'the soul'. Everpresent, yet unfathomable to the common man, hobbit, or even elf. A place where the Elf-lord shines like a star.

More than awareness; there's the line in this chapter:

They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and Unseen they have great power.

What's the relation here with "fire of their spirit" that SGH quoted in this thread?

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

I remember thinking, before I even had the benefit of the appendices behind me, who was this Eärendil and why was it so bold of Bilbo to sing about him in the House of Elrond? This sense of layers and deeper lore is why, to this day, I still suggest new readers follow Tolkien's works by publication as opposed to chronology. It makes the uncovering of the stories within the Silmarillion and those that follow all the more anticipated and wonderful.

You hit the nail on the head. Earendil crops up in Lorien and Shelob's Lair, adding a bit more detail and providing continuity with the histories. Then, later, you read about him in the Sil in the context of the whole First Age, and re-reading these chapters of LOTR brings many more layers of meaning.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

What's the relation here with "fire of their spirit" that SGH quoted in this thread?

Is this the fire like 'the fire of Feanor's spirit, that he was kind of famour for?

You hit the nail on the head. Earendil crops up in Lorien and Shelob's Lair, adding a bit more detail and providing continuity with the histories. Then, later, you read about him in the Sil in the context of the whole First Age, and re-reading these chapters of LOTR brings many more layers of meaning.

Yeah, and how Frodo is inspired to say (oh my goodness, can't remember) Gilthalion A Erendil ... in the prison at the top of the orcs watchtower in Mordor.

EDIT: I just thought of another aspect of this chapter. (I mean, this is the one with the Council of Elrond right?)

Legolas and Gimli did not start out of friends, partly due to how Gloin (Gimli's father) was treated in Thranduil's prison. Do you think Gloin harboured any resentment? I don't think he did after all that time, but if he did, do you think he dealt with it at Rivendell? Would Elrond have been involved, as he is very wise?
I'm also wondering, what was discussed outside of what we "saw" at the Council (if you take my meaning). Did Boromir and Aragorn talk more, etc. ?

[The Gaffer]

As for Gloin, we get a clue as to his feelings in the next chapter when he hears that the Elves felt sorry for Gollum being cooped up and let him out to climb trees.

EDIT *checks thread title * I think we're still on Many Meetings.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

As for Gloin, we get a clue as to his feelings in the next chapter when he hears that the Elves felt sorry for Gollum being cooped up and let him out to climb trees.

EDIT *checks thread title * I think we're still on Many Meetings.

Oh, erm... the Council of Elrond has it's own chapter..? Oops, ignore my out of place comment, I'll move it when the next chapter comes up.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Is this the fire like 'the fire of Feanor's spirit, that he was kind of famour for?

Good question; I'm not sure. Feänor's spirit was supposed to burn brightest of all the Elves, though whether this was metaphorically or literally I couldn't say.

I recall a thread from some time ago (>1 yr) about "feä" (but searching for feä doesn't help because it's too short, so forgive me for not finding it), which is the "spirit" of elves, and which eventually consumes their material bodies so that, in Middle-Earth, they become pure spirit with no material bodies, as SGH points out in that quote.

What I'm wondering is whether it is the "feä" that gives Glorfindel that dual existence.

Gandalf suggests that it was because he had been to the Blessed Realm. So, in theory, Elrond, Arwen, Celeborn etc would not have the dual existence. That would imply that it's something other than feä, which all elves have. It would also give us another reason to be pedantic about the movie, since Arwen is portrayed in the Glorfindel manner when Frodo is fading towards wraithdom.

What do you think?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Yeah, and how Frodo is inspired to say (oh my goodness, can't remember) Gilthalion A Erendil ... in the prison at the top of the orcs watchtower in Mordor.

I think it was 'Aiya Earendil elenion ancalima" and Sam shouted "Gilthoniel A Elbereth"

[Rían]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I recall a thread from some time ago (>1 yr) about "feä" (but searching for feä doesn't help because it's too short, so forgive me for not finding it), which is the "spirit" of elves, and which eventually consumes their material bodies so that, in Middle-Earth, they become pure spirit with no material bodies, as SGH points out in that quote.

I think that's in HOME 10, Morgoth's Ring.

Let's petition the Powers that Be to change the search limit back to 3 characters!!!!! SGH & Co., would that be OK? There are many times I've wanted to search for rather unique 3-character words and it would have been helpful.

It would also give us another reason to be pedantic about the movie...

LOL!

[Fat middle]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I think that's in HOME 10, Morgoth's Ring.

Let's petition the Powers that Be to change the search limit back to 3 characters!!!!! SGH & Co., would that be OK? There are many times I've wanted to search for rather unique 3-character words and it would have been helpful.

LOL!

A three characters search engine would make the database too large...

also, if you want to search for feä, probably you can find it using hroa as key

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I think it was 'Aiya Earendil elenion ancalima" and Sam shouted "Gilthoniel A Elbereth"

that's it
And Sam's my favourite character! Thanks.

Hey, what's 'pedantic'? I detect a clever, wry comment, if only I could understand.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

What I'm wondering is whether it is the "feä" that gives Glorfindel that dual existence.

Gandalf suggests that it was because he had been to the Blessed Realm. So, in theory, Elrond, Arwen, Celeborn etc would not have the dual existence. That would imply that it's something other than feä, which all elves have.

Yes, I think it is the fëa (spirit) of Glorfindel that makes him more powerful than most of the other Elves in Imladris, and able to ride out openly against the Black Riders. The Elves who had been in the Blessed Realm, had lived among the Ainur and had seen the light of the two trees had got their fëar strenghtened. But I do not think Gandalf was wording himself correctly when he said that "those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds" because as you said, all Elves have a fëa. All Men have a fëa too. So all Elves and Men have this dual existence. The difference between Glorfindel and most of the remaining Elves (and Men!) in Middle Earth is that his fëa was strong enough to face the threat from the Nazgûl.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

that's it
And Sam's my favourite character! Thanks.

Hey, what's 'pedantic'? I detect a clever, wry comment, if only I could understand.

Mine too, btw.

Pedantic is where you pick holes in something to an unnecessarily tedious extent. Like "Arwen wouldn't glow like that in Frodo's vision because she hadn't been to the Blessed Realm". Or even taking issue with the word "awareness" like I just did.

Hoom hom. What you say makes sense, as usual, Artanis. That stuff about fea is coming back to me a bit: men are only dimly aware of it, and hence they are terrified of the Nazgul. So maybe we need another word for Glorfindel other than "awareness" or "existing in both worlds".

I also recall that the orcs refer to some fate-worse-than-death of being stripped bare "on the other side" and left to squirm before the Eye. Do you think this is the same "other side"? Is the curtain in Frodo's dream in Tom Bombadil's house supposed to represent a transition through to the "other side"?

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Pedantic is where you pick holes in something to an unnecessarily tedious extent. Like "Arwen wouldn't glow like that in Frodo's vision because she hadn't been to the Blessed Realm". Or even taking issue with the word "awareness" like I just did.

Lol! Being pedantic is funny sometimes (especially when it involves movie-Arwen bwahahaha )

Hoom hom. What you say makes sense, as usual, Artanis. That stuff about fea is coming back to me a bit: men are only dimly aware of it, and hence they are terrified of the Nazgul. So maybe we need another word for Glorfindel other than "awareness" or "existing in both worlds".

What do you mean by awareness? Do you mean being aware of the blessed realm after having been there? Are you implying that it's like a building no one can find unless they've been shown it, or is that why you took issue with the word?

I also recall that the orcs refer to some fate-worse-than-death of being stripped bare "on the other side" and left to squirm before the Eye. Do you think this is the same "other side"? Is the curtain in Frodo's dream in Tom Bombadil's house supposed to represent a transition through to the "other side"?

*ponders* That makes you wonder about the nature of Tom Bombadil, but I won't open up that debate in here.
I think this is certainly possible. What, in that case, was the significance of the tower dream Frodo had there? (The one with the sea.) (If we're allowed to discuss old chapters.)

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

What do you mean by awareness? Do you mean being aware of the blessed realm after having been there? Are you implying that it's like a building no one can find unless they've been shown it, or is that why you took issue with the word?

Er * looks back through the thread *

I was wanting to distinguish between being aware of something and actually having a dual existence. The discussion suggests that men and elves both have this dual existence but perhaps with men it's weaker. Maybe that's why their awareness of it is like your building scenario in that they don't really know it.

*ponders* That makes you wonder about the nature of Tom Bombadil, but I won't open up that debate in here.
I think this is certainly possible. What, in that case, was the significance of the tower dream Frodo had there? (The one with the sea.) (If we're allowed to discuss old chapters.)

Figuratively, I think he's a "gatekeeper" type character.

There's a clear change in writing style when the hobbits enter his world, and it leads them into an awareness of this (or a) spiritual world. I think Frodo's vision/dream in Tom's house happens for that reason: as his introduction.

These sorts of references are, in Tom's dialogue, mixed in with earthy and instinctual type things (such as how if the ponies smell danger, they run the right way). I wonder if JRRT's intention was to position things like "instinct", "insight" and "foresight" as aspects of the spiritual world.

It's interesting, then, that Sam doesn't have any dream.

[brownjenkins]

i always saw frodo's dream as a glimpse to the end of the novel... the ultimate reality that in the end he'd be forced to leave middle earth to find peace

which kind of fits in with my view of tom bombadil... i always saw him as the 'moral' of the story... the only character completely content with himself and his place in the world... thus uneffected by the ring and any of the other 'evils' (or 'goods') of the world

the vision in tom's house was a sign from tom to frodo that in the end he too might find this contentment

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

At first I thought it was something to do with Frodo's path crossing that of the elves, but when I reread it I noticed the link with the end.

[The Gaffer]

Yes, I think that's definitely the case.

I wondered if Sam could also fit into this category (i.e. of contented characters), and that was why he didn't have a dream. Basically, Sam inherits what Frodo has to sacrifice.

Just to pick up on another couple of points:

Is there any validity to this musing, or may Gandalf have had other reasons for leaving the Ring in the Shire, which he may not have positively identified, but certainly had concerns about?

Given the dangers, it's hard to believe that he would risk it if he genuinely suspected that this was the One Ring. I don't think there's a subtle subtext here, just some inconsistency in the story. In Shadow of the Past Gandalf states that he knew it was a Great Ring right from the outset, but didn't know which one. In the next chapter, we find out that he must have known that it couldn't have been one of the Three, Seven or Nine.

Other possibilities include his concern for Bilbo, and the importance (for Bilbo) that he gave up the Ring willingly). We also find out in this chapter why he didn't reveal the Ring's existence to Saruman. Perhaps he thought the Ring was safer in the Shire than sitting on a table at the White Council with Saruman eyeing it.

But we can also make sense of this if we realise that "the tale grew in the telling" and therefore contains some inconsistencies.

a shadow-vision of an almost gollum-like appearance comes over Bilbo

A very significant event. All at once, Frodo realises what the Ring can really do to those who carry it and realises that nothing can ever be the same. It also sets the scene for his subsequent connection with Gollum. As a reader, you are also jerked back to reality and you know that getting to Rivendell was no ending: the story is only just beginning.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Given the dangers, it's hard to believe that he would risk it if he genuinely suspected that this was the One Ring. I don't think there's a subtle subtext here, just some inconsistency in the story. In Shadow of the Past Gandalf states that he knew it was a Great Ring right from the outset, but didn't know which one. In the next chapter, we find out that he must have known that it couldn't have been one of the Three, Seven or Nine.

Well, obviously he knew it wasn't one of the Three or the Nine. But maybe he wasn't 100% sure that all the Seven were lost or destroyed, and he was double-checking. In addition to his other tasks, that would have taken a while. When he knew the truth, he was then sure Bilbo had the One Ring. Maybe he was only sure that Thrain lost the last of the Seven in the dungeons of Dol Guldor (sp?), and that was when the White Council attacked (after many delays by Saruman). So if this was the case, it wouldn't be an inconsistency right? Because IIRC, Gandalf goes to the Shire only shortly after the attack on Dol Guldor.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Well, obviously he knew it wasn't one of the Three or the Nine. But maybe he wasn't 100% sure that all the Seven were lost or destroyed, and he was double-checking. In addition to his other tasks, that would have taken a while. When he knew the truth, he was then sure Bilbo had the One Ring. Maybe he was only sure that Thrain lost the last of the Seven in the dungeons of Dol Guldor (sp?), and that was when the White Council attacked (after many delays by Saruman). So if this was the case, it wouldn't be an inconsistency right? Because IIRC, Gandalf goes to the Shire only shortly after the attack on Dol Guldor.

But I thought the attack on Dol Guldor was way back in 2941... while Bilbo and the Dwarves were going through Mirkwood and on up to Erebor. And Gandalf's only encounter with Thrain was 100 years before that... THAT was when he snuck into the place and found Thrain in a dungeon there.

Still though... perhaps he had to check on some of the other Seven... and get back to Elrond and Galadriel ... ("Are you SURE that's how many there were???" )