Why did the Ring betray Isildur?

[Blackheart]

Frode didn't succumb to the ring's influence until he was at the very heart of mount doom. The ring's power increased exponentially as it was brought closer to the place where it was forged.

At that point there probably wasn't anyone on middle earth who could have resisted the ring's influence. Except maybe Bombadil.

[Pytt]

You say maybe. Don't you think Bombadil could have resisted the ring inside Mt. Doom, or at the foot of it?

[Blackheart]

Probably at the foot of the mountain.

Inside at the forge, I'm not sure. From what I understand it would be like having the entire will of Morgoth directed into your brain...

[Olmer]

No, it’s all hearsay. The Ring did not betray Isildur.The situation was quite different .The great warrior was not trying to escape, jumping in the water, but in desperation sacrificed his life trying to HIDE the Ring using the best available at present situation source -the deep waters of Anduin.

Who can say with certainty that the Ring betrayed Isildur? Somebody, who stayed nearby. And since Elrond was so certain, it must be him, who saw the whole incident. Did he have a good reason to be there? Yes, an extremely good reason!

Let's look at broader picture.
Who would be not interested in Isildur's wielding of the Ring? Definitely, not Sauron, who at present time was licking his wounds. Besides it wouldn’t be bad , while recuperating, to get another King-nazgul at your service. But the Elves…
Should I tell you, or somebody else will make an educated deductions?
I’ll give a few clues. What about was the talk on the plateau of Gorgoroth ? And what the elves would lose with Isildur’s gaining of the Ring?

[Pytt]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Probably at the foot of the mountain.

Inside at the forge, I'm not sure. From what I understand it would be like having the entire will of Morgoth directed into your brain...

So the only one able to resist the ring inside is Eru, or could the Valar, Manwe for an example, also resist?

Interseting view Olmer, never thought about it that way.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Olmer

No, it’s all hearsay. The Ring did not betray Isildur.The situation was quite different .The great warrior was not trying to escape, jumping in the water, but in desperation sacrificed his life trying to HIDE the Ring using the best available at present situation source -the deep waters of Anduin.

Who can say with certainty that the Ring betrayed Isildur? Somebody, who stayed nearby. And since Elrond was so certain, it must be him, who saw the whole incident. Did he have a good reason to be there? Yes, an extremely good reason!

Let's look at broader picture.
Who would not be interested in Isildur's wielding of the Ring? Definitely, not Sauron, who at present time was licking his wounds. Besides it wouldn’t be bad , while recuperating, to get another King-nazgul at your service. But the Elves…
Should I tell you, or somebody else will make an educated deductions?
I’ll give a few clues. What about was the talk on the plateau of Gorgoroth ? And what the elves would lose with Isildur’s gaining of the Ring?

Elrond wasn't nearby when the Ring betrayed Isildur. He was in Imladris at the time, nowhere near the Gladden Fields.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Pytt

You say maybe. Don't you think Bombadil could have resisted the ring inside Mt. Doom, or at the foot of it?

Tom Bombadil, for some mysterious reason, would never leave his lands though. It would be impossible to answer this question because he would never go there.

Olmer your theories are creative at least. Maybe you're thinking of the one guy who survived who brought the shards of Narsil to Imladris (name escapes me). He was a Man though.
How can you think Elrond was an evil conspirator? As Attalus pointed out, he wasn't there anyway. But this is Elrond we're talking about! One of the Wise, as kind as summer...

I think you could safely say that all Elves and all being of Middle-earth would lose if the Ring was not destroyed. That was the only way to guarantee Sauron would not regain it. That was Elrond's goal, not to gain it for himself. He didn't say, "Give it to me so I can destroy it," he said, "Destroy it Isildur."

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

How can you think Elrond was an evil conspirator? As Attalus pointed out, he wasn't there anyway. ."

Right. He was not supposed to be there. Then why there is such conviction in his words that the Ring betrayed Isildur? Nobody can see him or perseive the Rings whereabout, unless you are wearing one of the Three. By the process of deduction we are coming out on Elrond, who insinuates that Isildur was betrayed by the Ring. But, sadly, the cause of his death was more sinister betrayal. Isildur signed his death warrant on the plateau of Gorgoroth refusing to give the Ring to the Elves.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

That was Elrond's goal, not to gain it for himself. He didn't say, "Give it to me so I can destroy it," he said, "Destroy it Isildur."

Oh... don't tell me the line from the movie. Read the book, and read carefully. I had a reason asking of what did Elrond, Cirdan and Isildur talk about on the plateau of Gorgoroth
Elrond could say anything to make this heroic warrior looking greedy and less noble, because no credible eyewitness left, save Elrond himself, but even in his careful built up story the truth slips out:Isildur would not surrender it to Elrond and Cirdan ( Silmarills)
And, if Estelmo was really telling the exact words of the King at the last minutes of his life, than the terrible truth is suddenly coming out:” My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three..” (UT)
Notice, he is not saying what should be done to the Ring, like “it should be destroyed”, he says who should HAVE it, which means that the arguments on the slopes of Orodruin was NOT about elimination of the Ring, but about WHO has more rights to keep it.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I think you could safely say that all Elves and all being of Middle-earth would lose if the Ring was not destroyed.

Since it was not destroyed, but gained a new master, who would be more vulnerable at the present situation?

[Beor]

its a slippery little ****er

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Right. He was not supposed to be there. Then why there is such conviction in his words that the Ring betrayed Isildur? Nobody can see him or perseive the Rings whereabout, unless you are wearing one of the Three. By the process of deduction we are coming out on Elrond, who insinuates that Isildur was betrayed by the Ring. But, sadly, the cause of his death was more sinister betrayal. Isildur signed his death warrant on the plateau of Gorgoroth refusing to give the Ring to the Elves.
Oh... don't tell me the line from the movie. Read the book, and read carefully. I had a reason asking of what did Elrond, Cirdan and Isildur talk about on the plateau of Gorgoroth
Elrond could say anything to make this heroic warrior looking greedy and less noble, because no credible eyewitness left, save Elrond himself, but even in his careful built up story the truth slips out:Isildur would not surrender it to Elrond and Cirdan ( Silmarills)
And, if Estelmo was really telling the exact words of the King at the last minutes of his life, than the terrible truth is suddenly coming out:” My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three..” (UT)
Notice, he is not saying what should be done to the Ring, like “it should be destroyed”, he says who should HAVE it, which means that the arguments on the slopes of Orodruin was NOT about elimination of the Ring, but about WHO has more rights to keep it.

I see where you are coming from but I seriously doubt it. Cirdan would definitly not wish for the Ring to survive and I'm pretty sure that Elrond wouldn't either. In Appendix A of LotR it says that Cirdan is wiser than all the other dwellers of ME and could see the furthest (foresight). Why would the wisest of ME wish for the Ring when it could be destroyed

[Pytt]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Tom Bombadil, for some mysterious reason, would never leave his lands though. It would be impossible to answer this question because he would never go there.

Yes. But in theory. I thought he could resist the Ring where ever he was, but Blackheart seems to think different.
So, it was only theoretic.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I see where you are coming from but I seriously doubt it. Why would the wisest of ME wish for the Ring when it could be destroyed

I did not say they wanted the Ring to wield. Ask yourself a few questions about abilities of the ring and you can't help not to come to the answer:
the most important abilities of the Ring was DOMINATION and PRESERVATION.
Let's look at domination.
By refusing to surrender the Ring to the Mighty and Wise, Isildur put himself on the same level and even higher than his ex-allies, who felt that by their right as a Firstborn they have the priority on decision about the Ring. Besides, they were perfectly aware of the fact that eventually they will be subjected to Isildur’s will, and not in the other way around . Not knowing the true power of the Ring, he was not aware that he got a real hold on the mightiest of the Elves, but with time he definitely would come to such realization. Unfortunately too late, Isildur found out about the abilities of the owners of the other Rings of Power to see the carrier of the Ring, even if he is staying invisible.This explains why he did not stay on the battlefield and fight being invisible .After all , with gain of the Ring he saw the hidden Rings, and knew who is that mysterious Keepers of the Three: Cirdan, Elrond and , probably to his unexpected surprise, Galadriel , who was nursing an idea of enhancing her own authority: I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired to ask what you offer. For many long years I had pondered what I might do should the Great Ring come into my hands. (FOTR)Certainly , such perspective of loosing their power could worry the Keepers, and I don’t believe that they didn’t do nothing to prevent such catastrophic outcome.

Why the Elves would be interested in preservation of the Ring?
The preservation of the Ring was moving an emigration to indefinite time and , while the Ring still exist, with their Rings they can stop the time and preserve things unchanged safely from Eru's wraith , putting the blame on Sauron's cunning devise.

[me9996]

Maybe it thought that the orcs would find it...

P.S.
Post 490!!!

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Pytt

Yes. But in theory. I thought he could resist the Ring where ever he was, but Blackheart seems to think different.
So, it was only theoretic.

Oh yes, sorry, I misunderstood your post.

Olmer, I don't think preservation was one of the One Ring's abilities, unless you mean self-preservation.

Galadriel was tempted by the Ring, but she did everything she could to aid Frodo in the Quest. In the end she resisted the temptation. Elrond, whether he was tempted by the Ring or not, also did everything he could to aid Frodo in the Quest. Actions speak louder than words, or thoughts.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree with Nurv. During the Council both Elrond and Gandalf refused to wield or bear the Ring, as did Galadriel, albeit after being seriously tempted. They would have wished for Isildur to destroy it himself, not for them to destroy it. They knew what the Ring was capable of whereas Isildur didn't know the eextent of what could be done. The Ring would have exploited this in the elves.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

I had a reason asking of what did Elrond, Cirdan and Isildur talk about on the plateau of Gorgoroth
Elrond could say anything to make this heroic warrior looking greedy and less noble, because no credible eyewitness left, save Elrond himself, but even in his careful built up story the truth slips out:Isildur would not surrender it to Elrond and Cirdan ( Silmarills)
And, if Estelmo was really telling the exact words of the King at the last minutes of his life, than the terrible truth is suddenly coming out:” My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three..” (UT)
Notice, he is not saying what should be done to the Ring, like “it should be destroyed”, he says who should HAVE it, which means that the arguments on the slopes of Orodruin was NOT about elimination of the Ring, but about WHO has more rights to keep it.

It is very convincing, Olmer. I believe you are right that at the time of the Last Alliance the elves (the bearers of the three) wanted to keep the Ruling ring safe. No, not to wield it, but not to destroy it either. Because without the One the Three are just nice pieces of jewellery. By the time of the Last Alliance they have had their rings for about 2000 years, unable to put them on even once! They must have longed to wield them at last. Especially it concerns Galadriel. She has refused to return to Aman, she still wanted great realms of her own. And she must have already felt weariness and fading. She was much older than Elrond. He was a recent ringbearer and young still, so he might have suggested the Ring's destruction, but I don't believe Galadriel agreed. She needed to use her ring so very much. And in the third age her ring has permitted her to make a paradise on ME for herself and some of the elves. After the destruction of the ring, when the 3 elven rings lost their power, their wielders departed immediately.

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

During the Council both Elrond and Gandalf refused to wield or bear the Ring, as did Galadriel, albeit after being seriously tempted. They would have wished for Isildur to destroy it himself, not for them to destroy it. They knew what the Ring was capable of whereas Isildur didn't know the extent of what could be done. The Ring would have exploited this in the elves.

Yes, but the situation in TA 3018 was totally different from that in TA 0004. Galadreel still would have loved to keep the Ring buried deep under her mallorn tree, but she knew it was not possible anymore. Sauron bacame so strong that he would have got the Ring by force. Elrond said at the Counsil that the ring could not remain in Imladris, because his realm will not be able to withstand the assault of all Sauron's forces. So they had to destroy the ring at this time.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by gordis

Yes, but the situation in TA 3018 was totally different from that in TA 0004. Galadreel still would have loved to keep the Ring buried deep under her mallorn tree, but she knew it was not possible anymore. Sauron bacame so strong that he would have got the Ring by force. Elrond said at the Counsil that the ring could not remain in Imladris, because his realm will not be able to withstand the assault of all Sauron's forces. So they had to destroy the ring at this time.

Galadriel had lived through the Wars of Beleriand and would not want to see the elves going though a similar thing to what happened then. I think Galadriel knew that the price of the Ring was to great just to ignore because she wanted her Ring.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Galadriel had lived through the Wars of Beleriand and would not want to see the elves going though a similar thing to what happened then. I think Galadriel knew that the price of the Ring was to great just to ignore because she wanted her Ring.

Well, why then didn't the elves search for Isildur's body? If it was possible for Saruman to find Isildurs bones a couple of millenia since the event (see UT) it must have been easy to find it shortly after the disaster at Gladden. But they have not found it, so they have not searched for the Ring. If at this time the elves believed that it were VITAL to DESTROY the Ring they would have spent all their immortal lives diving at the Gladden. But they just left the Ring there, because they believed that it was well HIDDEN in the Anduin. Of course, they would have preferred it hidden in Imladris or in the Grey havens but they decided Anduin will do. And they started happily using the Three.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by gordis

...at the time of the Last Alliance the elves (the bearers of the three) wanted to keep the Ruling ring safe. No, not to wield it, but not to destroy it either. Because without the One the Three are just nice pieces of jewellery.
She has refused to return to Aman, she still wanted great realms of her own.
She was much older than Elrond. He was a recent ringbearer and young still, so he might have suggested the Ring's destruction, but I don't believe Galadriel agreed. She needed to use her ring so very much.

Yes, but the situation in TA 3018 was totally different from that in TA 0004. Galadreel still would have loved to keep the Ring buried deep under her mallorn tree, but she knew it was not possible anymore. Sauron bacame so strong that he would have got the Ring by force. Elrond said at the Counsil that the ring could not remain in Imladris, because his realm will not be able to withstand the assault of all Sauron's forces. So they had to destroy the ring at this time.

That right. For 60 years Gandalf tried to follow Galadriel's plan.Then safekeeping of the Ring became known to the Enemy and Galadriel had to agree on execution of the second plan.....and if MY designs had not gone amiss.. "(The Fellowhip of the Ring) But right from the beginning she secretly contemplated a different schemes of what to do with the Ring:to make it disappear. One of them had been sucsessfully executed on the Gladden Fields
For 2500 thousand years the ring has been safely "lost" .
In mean time Galadriel, a farseeing politician and charming, but cold and calculating intrigant, became the mightiest on the Middle earth, who could summon even such independent and powerful entities as Istari and talk to them on the same level. "I it was who first summoned the White Council“ (FOTR) She was even mightier than Sauron, because she came from generation of such elves as Fingolfin and Feanor, who were strong and confident enough to challenge even Morgoth himself, not to mention balrogs and dragons. Contrary to Sauron, who with lost of his ring was diminishing in his power, Galadriel, with new gaining abilities to wield the Nenya, became even stronger. She arrogantly admits that has no wish to go over Sea: “Here I am mightier" (UT) than if she would be anywhere else.
The second attempt to make the Ring to get lost, the ambush at Rauros, unfortunatelly went "belly up" because of Boromir. She totally lost control over the situation after the Ringbearers entered the vicinity of Mordor, and had to accept inevitable.

Originally Posted by gordis

It is very convincing, Olmer.

Glad to find at least one person, who sees the picture far above the framed part. Welcome to the Moot!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Glad to find at least one person, who sees the picture far above the framed part. Welcome to the Moot!

Thank you, Olmer, I really find your posts most interesting. But that does not mean that I agree with ALL your points. No, I don't! But I like your approach: to treat Tolkien sources as if it were historical evidence and try to explain the events using logic. Believe facts and not someone's words, even the words of oh so holy elves . And I agree that the ME history as it came to us is very Elf-centered.

Originally Posted by Olmer

The second attempt to make the Ring to get lost, the ambush at Rauros, unfortunatelly went "belly up" because of Boromir. She totally lost control over the situation after the Ringbearers entered the vicinity of Mordor, and had to accept inevitable.!

And what exactly do you hint at? That after she let Frodo depart from Lorien she has reconsidered and decided to get the ring after all?