Iluvatar made Melkor evil?

[Lanelf]

See, I don't think of Melkor as evil, really. Iluvatar gave him free choice and I don't think he chose bad as much as different. I know it's been a while since I read the Sil, but didn't he just want to introduce his own theme to the Music? It wasn't entirely what you could call his fault that it created dischords - have you ever tried improvising in an orchestra!?!
Lanelf.

[Lief Erikson]

So you do not believe in evil?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
I think that in Middle Earth, man certainly did have free will, to make their own decisions. And Eru can use the decisions of men to his own purposes.

It's like if you have a choice whether to go into a house or not. You could choose to go in, and if you choose that, then Eru knew in advance what you were going to do. But you could choose to remain outside of the house, and if you choose that, then Eru knew in advance what you were going to do. He knows, but that doesn't stop you from having a choice. You can make up your own mind, and you can't blame your actions on predestination, for you had the ability to do something different. You simply chose not to. Eru wants the people of Middle Earth to do what is right, and it's their own choice whether they do or not. But whether they do right or evil, he knows. Simply because someone knows in advance what you are going to do does not mean it isn't your choice and your decision.

This is why I love this site, I'm constantly forced to question my own opinions! Lief Erikson and others, your explanations are good. But I'm still in doubt. If Eru knew all desitions of his Children in advance, didn't he also know at the time of the creation of these Children? And if so, how could he not have made them this way? It's still contradictory to me. I'm more happy with SGH's latter interpretation.

[Lief Erikson]

Ahhh, could you please rephrase your question? I don't quite get what you're asking.

[Lanelf]

So you do not believe in evil?

Well, it's not that I don't believe in it, just I don't think Melkor was. I mean, some *humans* are evil! But Melkor was (at least at first) just trying to introduce his own theme and stuff.
Lanelf.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lanelf
Well, it's not that I don't believe in it, just I don't think Melkor was. I mean, some *humans* are evil! But Melkor was (at least at first) just trying to introduce his own theme and stuff.
Lanelf.

Wrong. Morgoth intentionally caused dischord in the music.

[Lief Erikson]

Lanelf, what is your definition of evil?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
If Eru knew all desitions of his Children in advance, didn't he also know at the time of the creation of these Children? And if so, how could he not have made them this way?

Lief Erikson, is this the part you are asking her to rephrase? I think what she means is -- is there a way that Eru could have made the Children so that they would not make evil choices. (Sissel, you of the speaking 4 or 5 languages (I'm so jealous ), correct me if I'm wrong )

And SGH, I agree with you, it was not just an artistic urge that made Melkor try to change the Music.

And to answer my rephrasing of Artanis' question (whether or not she meant it!), C. S. Lewis, in his book "The Problem of Pain", deals with the whole free will issue and many of its ramifications. Some quick quotes from a section where he is talking about the necessity of having a fixed environment in order for people to express their free will, and the problems that arise from evil motives :

And if souls are free, they cannot be prevented from dealing with the problem by competition instead of by courtesy. And once they have advanced to actual hostility, they can then exploit the fixed nature of matter to hurt one another. The permanent nature of wood which enables us to use it as a beam also enables us to use it for hitting our neighbour on the head. .... We can, perhaps, conceive of a world in which God corrected the results of this abuse of free will by His creatures at every moment: so that a wooden beam became soft as grass when it was used as a weapon, and the air refused to obey me if I attempted to set up in it the sound waves that carry lies or insults. But such a world would be one in which wrong actions were impossible, and in which, therefore, freedom of the will would be void; nay, if the principle were carried out to its logical conclusion, evil thoughts would be impossible, for the cerebral matter which we use in thinking would refuse its task when we attempted to frame them."

A bit of a long quote, but I think it expresses pretty well how Eru could have made Melkor not evil, but just with free will, which implies choices to choose from, some of which were, unfortunately, evil. Opinions?

[MasterMothra]

perhaps eru was a humerous god and enjoyed watching what would transpire in middle earth with indifference. eru was simply watching tv and the sitcom was arda.

[Lief Erikson]

I agree, RÃ*an. I don't think that there is any way that you can make someone not able to do evil but still having free choice, unless it is their very nature to not want to do evil. If doing good was what they wanted to do in the start, then that would conquer evil. They had the ability to do it, but they simply didn't want to. This plainly is the ideal, for Earth or Middle Earth. Unattainable in Earth unless you believe in Christ, but that's a matter of religion.

However, they do have free will, so even if it is their nature to do good, they have the ability to do evil if they wish to. Melkor was powerful, and he had a great deal of strength and wisdom. His nature in the beginning was probably the same as that of the other Valar, but unlike them, he wasn't content, and wanted more. He wanted something of his own, and so commited his first sins, arrogance and envy. Those led away from his nature and he chose the choices that weren't natural to him, but led to his darker sins, and to his final, biting and hating malice.

God/Eru can make something pure and beautiful and noble, but by giving it free choice, it has the ability to go wrong if it sets its mind to selfishness.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Lief Erikson, is this the part you are asking her to rephrase? I think what she means is -- is there a way that Eru could have made the Children so that they would not make evil choices.

No. I was repeating myself, trying to express my doubt about the idea of Eru creating the Ainur, Elves and Men with free will, but at the same time knowing all their choices and their outcome. It seems contradictory. Sorry if it didn't make sense, my English is not always good, whatever RÃ*an says.

(Sissel, you of the speaking 4 or 5 languages (I'm so jealous ), correct me if I'm wrong )

Am I speaking 4 or 5 languages? Well if you count my rather bad German and a few words and phrases in French ... oh yes of course, Swedish and Danish . And do Java and C++ count?

A bit of a long quote, but I think it expresses pretty well how Eru could have made Melkor not evil, but just with free will, which implies choices to choose from, some of which were, unfortunately, evil. Opinions?

I think Eru gave Melkor, and all the other Ainur, and Elves and Men, the gift of free will, to do good and seemingly evil. For Eru also said, what seem to be evil actions against His will, by His glorious design will be turned to something beautiful and good in the end.

The question is, as someone put it, what is this free will? Are the choices pre-determined by Eru as created by Him? Or are they not, but known to Eru in advance? Or are they neither pre-determined nor known, but merely choices subject to Eru's 'corrections'? My impression is Eru didn't know in advance every event in Arda. Some examples: Aule's decision to create the Dwarves. The downfall of Men. The rebellion of the Numenoreans. In these cases Eru was forced, as I see it, to take direct action onto the world.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
perhaps eru was a humerous god and enjoyed watching what would transpire in middle earth with indifference. eru was simply watching tv and the sitcom was arda.

That's in line with what I've been thinking sometimes. Iluvatar was simply bored, so he created the Ainur to cheer him up, and then created the world as their toy to play with, with Him as the playleader.

[Tar-Palantir]

Here is my thesis:

1. foreknowledge = predestination
2. predestination and free choice do not contradict each other.
3. A universe which contains evil does not mean the Creator of said universe is evil, nor does it make him guilty.

I'll start with number 3 first: What Iluvatar brings into being is a moral universe with free creatures. His universe has the potential for evil, but that evil does not spring from him. In a moral universe, good cannot exist without evil and vise versa. There must be the ugliness of evil to appreciate the beauty of the good. Therefore even evil has its purpose.

Now, the second one: All of history was pre-determined within the music of the Ainur. Was it not? I don't think the idea of destiny can be denied within Tolkien's universe. And yet, all of that history unfolds as free creature's make uncoerced decisions. Does it not? Do we see Iluvatar coercing any actions? No. And the outcomes are determined as much by the free decisions of the creatures as they are by the music of the Ainur. The point is, both are true. The fact that Melkor and others freely choose evil is proven by the fact that they are held responsible and punished for their actions. If their choice is not really theirs, they cannot be held responsible for it.

And now the first: If Iluvatar knows the outcome from the beginning and yet allows it, has he not then predestined that outcome? He could have changed it, but he chose not to. One might suppose that Iluvatar had an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of possibilities, histories, outcomes at his disposal. He freely chose the one he chose. He allowed the free choices of the Ainur in the music. He knew what part each would play. He allowed them to do so for his own purpose. Thus his foreknowledge IS predestination.

I know this was too long. Forgive me.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well said Tar-Palantir.

[Rían]

Welcome, Tar-Palantir, since by your post count you seem to be a newbie And I don't think your post was too long, you should see some of mine! (Right, SGH?)

I really like what you expressed, but I would just slightly reword one part - where you said

In a moral universe, good cannot exist without evil and vise versa.

I would say that free choice cannot exist without the possibility of evil (as opposed to the actual presence of evil) (however, it is all too evident that in this world, evil is present as well as possible )

I like how you worded these two ideas:

What Iluvatar brings into being is a moral universe with free creatures. His universe has the potential for evil, but that evil does not spring from him.

and:

The fact that Melkor and others freely choose evil is proven by the fact that they are held responsible and punished for their actions. If their choice is not really theirs, they cannot be held responsible for it.

Good points, IMHO.
(and that's my secret for long posts - quote other people's posts a lot! ) (not that post length matters, but post count! Entmoot joke! m-u-s-t- g-e-t t-o 60,000 t-o c-a-t-c-h S-G-H (heehee) )

[Sister Golden Hair]

And I don't think your post was too long, you should see some of mine! (Right, SGH?)

Indeed Tar-Palantir. Just go visit the Athrabeth thread. Nothing but a bunch of gabby girls in that one.

[Rían]

(SGH, check my edited post on the bottom part - can't you pleeezzee add a few posts to my count? Aw, comeon, just 50,000 or so )

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
(SGH, check my edited post on the bottom part - can't you pleeezzee add a few posts to my count? Aw, comeon, just 50,000 or so )

I wish I knew what my real post count was. And my 60,000 was put there because of the bonehead spammers. I mean I am not that gabby.

[Rían]

I know, I just think it's funny. The first time I saw that, I really did a double-take.

[Lief Erikson]

Welcome, Tar Palantir! Great to have you here!

I actually think that pre-destination is disproved simply by the fact that evil exists, unless you assume that Eru has evil a part of his personality. Because the creatures that he created do evil, sometimes, and if he is a good and perfect God, but one who has pre-destined everyone's lives, then he wouldn't include evil in them unless it was a part of his personality.

Free will is what defeats pre-destination. He didn't want a universe of robots; what a bore that would be to sing into being, and what a boring song! Because he is the creator, he knows what choices people will make this this new gift he has given them: free will. But that is simply foreknowledge.

If you're name is Mike, and you're a human on the planet Earth. Your brother, John, tells you that he is going to be doing a burglary on the bank in the city where you live, and you have two choices. You can turn him in to the police, or you can let him do what he wants. You have foreknowledge of what he's going to do, but that doesn't effect what he does, or what your choices are. It doesn't mean that you made him rob the bank; you aren't in control of what his free will has made him decide to do. This puts you in Eru's position.

Only Eru knows all the outcomes, for everything. He might stretch his hand into circumstances and what happens and do what he pleases to bring about his final plan.

Now let's say you're John, not Mike. You have two choices, rob the bank, or don't rob the bank. It's up to you what you do. You decide to rob the bank, and tell Mike about it. YOUR decision is made, and Mike (Eru), who can see all ends, has his own decisions to make based upon what he knows to be right. Mike isn't making you rob the bank, simply because he knows you're going to do it.

Oh, and Tar Palantir, I disagree with you about evil being necessary to have good. You can have good without evil, but simply not knowing evil doesn't mean you can't be completely happy doing and knowing goodness. I'm thinking of Adam and Eve when I say this. But the knowledge of evil is probably necessary for you to have the knowledge of grace.