feanor a villian

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

I would agree that all blame lies on Melkor. Feanor may have been proud, but it was the deceit and lies of Melkor that caused all the trouble and Feanor's jealous guarding of the Silmarils and all of Feanor's mistakes.

[Makamu]

I suppose, that you really have to blame Finwe to some extend, because he didn't seem to notice Feanor that much after his marriage with Indis. This in combination with Feanor's pride (which he didn't create out of thin air, by the way. He WAS the greatest of the Nolor) and Melkor's lies caused the downfall of Feanor. And I think, that it was this deadly combination that gave Feanor the reason to forsake Yavanna's wish, because he was blinded by his pride (and later by grief and anger) and thought that the light of the Silmaril was his own creation. After the news of Finwe's death reached Feanor's ears, he paid no heed to the words of Manwe and Eonwe, because he thought them to be just like Melkor

[Tar-Elendil]

melkor went among the noldor and told them lies and then they told other noldo and enlarged the lies and some came to the ears of the sons of finwe (feanor,fingolfin,finarfin). this and blind pride is what caused the later woes of middle-earth. Melkor put the idea that the valar were holding them as prisoners for they wouldnt gain dominion in M-E.

[Radagast The Brown]

I don't agree that the blame fall on Finwe and not on Feanor. If Feanor was an intellegent elf he wasn't believe to these lies in the first place. Of cource, Melkor had a big part of this, but I balme Feanor, not Finwe.

[Tar-Elendil]

i dont blame feanor nor finwe. Morgoth should get the blame

[Blackheart]

Hmm. Free will. that's the whole problem right there.

Feanor's decisions brought tragedy to the Noldor. He willfully rebelled also, shadowing Melkor's rebellion against Eru.

You can debate causal factors all you want, but when you get right down to it, it was Feanor making the decisions. He is a classic tragic figure, you don't get much more "classic" than him.

The best, brightest, most gifted, of all the Noldo, and his tragic flaw is pride. Therin lies the story. Repeated over and over in Tolkien's works. He may have not started out as evil, and he may not have been "evil" as Tolkien ascribes to the forces of darkness (irrevocably evil), but certes he epitomizes the "fall" from grace.

That's something that Melkor, Feanor (and the exiles), and the men of Westernesse all share. They were given gifts surpassing those of their fellows, and in their pride they forsook reason and strayed into darkness.

Good songs, it seems, are dearly bought.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

But I would still say all the blame lies on Morgoth, because without that, true, Feanor would have been proud, but the lies of Melkor are what caused all the problems. And Feanor never trusted Melkor, did he? I think Feanor's pride and vanity can be excused in that case. And if anyone else, I would say Finwe, for marrying Indis and neglecting his son...if only a little. Feanor needed more attention than he got form his parents, considering his personality.
True, his tragic flaw is pride, but his pride would not have gotten out of hand if it weren't for Melkor.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf
But I would still say all the blame lies on Morgoth, because without that, true, Feanor would have been proud, but the lies of Melkor are what caused all the problems. And Feanor never trusted Melkor, did he? I think Feanor's pride and vanity can be excused in that case. And if anyone else, I would say Finwe, for marrying Indis and neglecting his son...if only a little. Feanor needed more attention than he got form his parents, considering his personality.
True, his tragic flaw is pride, but his pride would not have gotten out of hand if it weren't for Melkor.

I disagree with this. Feanor is what I like to call the"twisted good". However, Feanor was from birth a challange, and I think Morgoth may have built upon that. Feanor was one that could never or would never admit he was wrong, even if he knew in his heart he was. Yes, he was prideful. I don't believe that was Morgoth's doing as much as I believe that Morgoth knew it, and used it to his advantage.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Yes, Feanor was too proud. And Melkor used this to his advantage. But if he had not, then Feanor would not have been the "twisted good," or not as much. Perhaps I sympathise with Feanor more because I am like him in pride (though not in skill!) and I am the older of two children, so I could see how he would be jealous of his younger brothers

[Blackheart]

I disagree that Feanor wouldn't have fallen if Morgoth hadn't been there to tempt him.

People like that don't need to be tempted, and anyway, even after the lies of Morgoth had been revealed, he went right on acting like an ass.

[Tar-Elendil]

thats because he had been banned from tirion and such. as said earlier his pride got in the way of wisdom many times.

[Blackheart]

Ban or no ban, he wouldn't have changed his behavior, OR recanted.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by Blackheart
I disagree that Feanor wouldn't have fallen if Morgoth hadn't been there to tempt him.

People like that don't need to be tempted, and anyway, even after the lies of Morgoth had been revealed, he went right on acting like an ass.

He wouldn't have had a reason to fall. He still would have been over-proud and arrogant, but then he would have just been a bit of a pompous ass, rather then causing all the trouble that he...caused.

[Elvellon]

Originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf


He wouldn't have had a reason to fall. He still would have been over-proud and arrogant, but then he would have just been a bit of a pompous ass, rather then causing all the trouble that he...caused.

I agree, Feanor was overly proud, and overly emotional, but without Morgoth’s influence there wouldn’t be a falling.

[Elvellon]

Originally posted by afro-elf
I could have forgiven feanor for all things save for dying command he knew that his sons could not win and he doomed them all ( all people of ME) with his dying wish

to doom yourself is one thing but to drag your children and an entire population is unforgiveable

sort of like osama dooming all of afghanistan

it seems tolkien reoccurring sins are pride and greed

A villain? Perhaps, but an understandable one. From the beginning he had a very atypical life (for a ñoldo of Aman). He never knew his mother, since she died shortly after his birth. A unique case among the Aman elves. It is therefore predictable that the young Feanor would became specially attached to his father. Under this light, the coming of Indis into Finwe’s life could be expected to be doubly disruptive to the young Feanor’s life. First, his father now divided his love with her and his new sons; second, and perhaps more importantly, the coming of Indis represented the end of any secret hope Feanor might had of the returning of his mother; how could he avoid to feel some resentment?

Then there were the actions of Morgoth. First he nurtured this resentment of Feanor and the natural pride and ambitions of the ñoldorin princes. On this game Fingolfin fell also, playing according to the desires of the Dark Lord; becoming a rival of Feanor (if Finarfin were older than Fingolfin then perhaps many things would have been different).

Then there was the murder of Finwe, the person that Feanor loved the most. Since that moment it is clear that Feanor, always a very emotional person, becomes totally controlled by is pain and desire of revenge. Of his two brothers only Finarfin remain calm and sensible, Fingolfin falls into bickering with Feanor for control of the Ñoldor. However good his intentions were, his actions created a rift between the Ñoldor and probably spurred Feanor into greater radicalism, perhaps without this he would not have made his dreadful oath.


And what about his actions after this?

The killing at Alqualonde was the unfortunate escalation of a brawl that got out of control when the Ñoldor attempted to rob the ships of the Teleri.
The burning of the ships was the result of the poisoned relations between Feanor and Fingolfin. The distrust between both had gone so far that none could trust the other, even for something so simple as using the ships in turn. Certainly Feanor didn’t predicted that Fingolfin would cross the hellish Helcaraxe, and in the burning of the ships he lost one of his sons…

Then we have the final act. Him spurring his sons to remain faithful to their oath despite that he now believed that there was no hope in it. But we must not forget he was a very emotional man, driven to the brink of irrationality, and even madness. I think that pride was not the only reason for his perseverance. He probably still hoped that, despite what his reason told him, his sons would succeed. Also, he probably could not bring himself to accept that everything that had happened (and that he had done or caused) was in vain.

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf


He wouldn't have had a reason to fall. He still would have been over-proud and arrogant, but then he would have just been a bit of a pompous ass, rather then causing all the trouble that he...caused.

Doubtful. Morgoth just sped it up. Eventually he would have grown to resent every one and everything around him.

Eventually he would have demanded something from someone who didn't want to give it to him, and being thwarted, he wouldn't accept it.

[Elvellon]

I don’t agree, without Morgoth’s lies and actions (like the murder of Finwe) Feanor’s behaviour would never be so extreme. He would still be overly proud, and likely not very sociable, but hardly would he fall into such a folly. It took the most extreme acts to truly drive him into his madness. Before Morgoth’s influence, Feanor dwelt in Aman for a long time, in reasonable harmony (or at least tolerance) with his brothers and with the Valar.

[Radagast The Brown]

I think that Blackhurt is right. Eventaully he was going to Middle Earth. maybe with less disasters but still...

but then I'm not sure that Fingolfin would go with him and Finwe wasn't dead so... no one could tell what would happen next (except Tolkien his self).

[Jador]

This sounds like it's been a really deep discussion,and I dont know all the points you've been over..(i.e.You'll have to excuse me if this has been said before)

Anyway I think that Feanor only let his pride leed him to actual evil deeds,after he(and others of the Noldor)were heavily influenced by Melkor.Untill he drew a sword on his brother he didn't 'do'anything wrong,and let's remember that it was Melkor who had sown the seeds of discontent and misstrust that led to the forging of weapons in the first place-and not just by Feanor and his followers.
Anyway as we know alot of really bad things happened after that and yes Feanor had a major role in them.But a most important fact is that he died well,and honourably-he died a hero.
He hated Morgoth with a passion-He wasn't evil,He wasn't a villian,he was decieved( for a while)by the master of lies.
But he died a hero...

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
I think that Blackhurt is right. Eventaully he was going to Middle Earth. maybe with less disasters but still...

but then I'm not sure that Fingolfin would go with him and Finwe wasn't dead so... no one could tell what would happen next (except Tolkien his self).

I agree with Elvellon--he may have been arrogant and prideful, but he would not have fallen, at least not have fallen so far as he did, from the lies and actions of Melkor.

And he would not have had a reason to go to Middle Earth if it hadn't been for Melkor.