Eru/Fate

[jammi567]

good point! anyways, have you got a question for me (only it seams at the moment) to answer, instead of me asking and you answering.

[durinsbane2244]

hm...well...how far ahead do you think the vision went? if it went all the way, we would know where Men went when they died, no?

[jammi567]

i think it might've gone to only near the end of the second age, when Numanor was swallowed up, because after that, they didn't seem to take a active part in middle earth after that, so it wouldn't matter to them what happens afterwards. also 'if it went all the way, we would know where Men went when they died, no?' i don't think so because a) it seems like the Valar were only told it's *possible* future events, not any of the 'technical' stuff , and b) even if they did know, i don't think they would tell the elf or man writing The Silmarillion these details because for the elves, it wouldn't matter, and for the men, they weren't important enough, nor would they have a person to tell them that knowledge.

[durinsbane2244]

true enough...but though they didn't take an active part, they did send the maia...gandy...

[CAB]

I guess that I am a little late with this, but regarding the foreknowledge/free-will question, Valandil gave what I consider to be an excellent answer in an earlier thread.

Originally Posted by Valandil

An explanation about God (EDIT: in this regard) that I understood the best was a different understanding of how God views the passage of time. We see one moment of time at once, obviously... we're limited in this way. Someone once suggested that God sees time THIS way: then put his hands about four feet apart, the one hand signifying the beginning of time, the other hand signifying the end, with God freely viewing (and because of His infinite qualities, fully comprehending) the entire scope of all time at once.

If this is a correct assessment of how God may view time, it's easier to understand the concept of 'foreknowledge' (knew what was going to happen) without that of 'foreordination' (determined what was going to happen).

[jammi567]

i understand the top paragraph, but can someone explain the bottom bit.

p.s no-one is ever too late for any discussion.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by jammi567

i understand the top paragraph, but can someone explain the bottom bit.

It basically means the same thing that durinsbane said in the first part of post 16. I’m no philosopher, but I think one of the common questions in philosophy is: Can free will exist if foreknowledge exists? If God already knows what you are going to do, then how can you be free to choose? This is an answer to that question and, in the opinion of this admitted non-philosopher, is a very good one.[/QUOTE]

[jammi567]

nice answer. I can't remember now, but wasn't there something about a Valar who could see into the future, but wasn't allowed to speak. if this is the case, then is direct knowledge of the future dangerous to both the individual and the valar s/he shares it with, because trying to change it would create a future that is usially badder then what was told?

p.s i'm no philosipher either!

[CAB]

Originally Posted by jammi567

nice answer. I can't remember now, but wasn't there something about a Valar who could see into the future, but wasn't allowed to speak. if this is the case, then is direct knowledge of the future dangerous to both the individual and the valar s/he shares it with, because trying to change it would create a future that is usially badder then what was told?

All the Valar could probably see the future to some degree. The Vala you are referring to is Mandos. His knowledge of the future was greater than anyone other than Eru’s. He spoke his prophesies only at Manwe’s command. I can’t remember why he was limited this way, but that is an interesting question. It could be because of the reason you mentioned. That is a danger that Galadriel warned Frodo of concerning her mirror. Well, I can’t think about that right now. Gotta go. Thanks for the feedback.

[jammi567]

that's ok. if all the valar can see into the future, what use would that be if none of them are allowes to use it? One last question for tonight: do the valar have a fea (soul)? Well, night all.

[durinsbane2244]

i think so. they represent angels, who are nothing but soul. also, they obviously do, because Melkor rebelled.

and CAB, THANK YOU!!! wow...that was so helpful to bring that in from Valandil, and Val, if you're reading, BRILLIANT!!!

[jammi567]

what has Melkor rebelling got to do with the Valar obviosly having a soul or being nothing but souls.

[durinsbane2244]

by Melkor rebelling, that shows that the Valar DO have free will...

[jammi567]

so are you saying that if you have a soul, you have a free will.

[durinsbane2244]

yes...but that's not the point here...all i'm saying is that the Valar did.

[jammi567]

ok, can see what you're saying now. but why just the Valar, why not elves, men etc. also, if all the valar can see into the future, what use would that be if none of them are allowes to use it?

[durinsbane2244]

they can use it...than the future just changes...i think when one sees into the future, they see it as it is when they see it...than, with the knowledge, they make different choices or such, and thus the futures changes...

[jammi567]

fair enough. so they basically had it so that the choices they had to make would be easier to decide thich one to chose.

[durinsbane2244]

yes...

[jammi567]

glad that's settled. would anybody else like to ask a question as you must be sick of me asking so many of them.