Women in LOTR - Page 2

Eruviel Greenleaf · 06-01-2002, 02:49 AM

I did.

Lizra · 06-01-2002, 08:31 AM

It was definitely slim pickens on the women in the story. I agree, Tolkien didn't know what to write for the women. Seems like almost all of them cept Lobelia had to be "Beautiful". What a burden! I've wondered about the orcs too. Seems like their mommas would be inclined to eat their young, being of such fine character and all. I'm glad LoTR isn't a chick story tho, I love it so!

Starr Polish · 06-01-2002, 12:06 PM

Bleh...a woman in the Fellowship, in my opinion, would have ruined the story.
Perhaps Tolkien was sexist, but he grew up in SEXIST TIMES. Personally, I was glad to finally find a book that doesn't just 'throw in a strong female character' to be politically correct (they're doing that in movies too...ahem, A Knight's Tale?). I know, I know, it was before all the worry about PC came, but still.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 06-01-2002, 01:32 PM

I agree that having a woman in the Fellowship would not have worked, and Tolkien can perhaps be forgiven for his sexism considering where and when he is coming from. Leave those sorts of female characters to more contemparary fantasy

sun-star · 06-01-2002, 01:55 PM

I didn't really notice there were no women in the fellowship. Doesn't make a difference to me. I think that if they're good characters, it doesn't matter if they're male or female - they're just people.

Tar-Elendil · 06-01-2002, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cassiopeia
Yes, but that was a time of war and even today it is usually men who fight in wars. Women arn't even allowed on the front line. Anyway Eowyn was a great female character and killed the Witch king.

P.S. I wouln't diss Pippin or Merry around here.

first off..Pippin is awesome..he took out that troll and..err..did some other stuff like look into the palantir

and eowyn didnt kill the witch king..Merry did..she she just hit em at the same time merry did if my memory serves, which isnt too often.

Handmaiden of Yavanna · 06-01-2002, 05:21 PM

Quote:

I wouln't diss Pippin or Merry around here

I wasn't "dissing" merry or pippin, I was just saying I would have liked a constant stronger female character in lotr. Any way how did we get on the topic of how orcs multiply and if you can tell the difference between a female and male dwarf? Its sort of funny how we changed topics

Cirdan · 06-01-2002, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tar-Elendil

first off..Pippin is awesome..he took out that troll and..err..did some other stuff like look into the palantir
and eowyn didnt kill the witch king..Merry did..she she just hit em at the same time merry did if my memory serves, which isnt too often.

Merry just distracted it long enoigh for her to regain her conposure anf strike the fatal blow. Remember, the witch king could not be killed by a "man".

Tar-Elendil · 06-01-2002, 06:56 PM

i remember...but merry isnt a man.
i know the words..i believe they were spoken by glorfindel to the king of gondor when the witch king retreated back to thr north.
"He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill.
But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving intot he ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his might knee."
goes on eowyn stabbed "between crown and mantle as the great shoulders bowed before her."
merry had a sword of westernesse. i dont see why or how eowyn's blow could have done anything to the witch king. if there is some text that says otherwise please tell me.

Tar-Elendil · 06-01-2002, 07:02 PM

oh..and i believe it was "by the hand of Man" or "Men" or sumtin..as in the whole race of Man..

Cirdan · 06-01-2002, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tar-Elendil
i remember...but merry isnt a man.
i know the words..i believe they were spoken by glorfindel to the king of gondor when the witch king retreated back to thr north.
"He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill.
But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving intot he ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his might knee."
goes on eowyn stabbed "between crown and mantle as the great shoulders bowed before her."
merry had a sword of westernesse. i dont see why or how eowyn's blow could have done anything to the witch king. if there is some text that says otherwise please tell me.

"between crown and mantle" would be a death blow. The knee wound would not neccssarily be fatal immediately or directly; certainly more than a distraction, though. I see about finding the related text. Hobbits are a type of "men", aren't they?

Cirdan · 06-01-2002, 07:15 PM

Witch King death thread

Tar-Elendil · 06-01-2002, 07:17 PM

eowyns sword shattered into a buncha little piece when she hit em..

no theyre not Men. look at treebeard's poem thingy..he made a new rhyme for the Halflings since they didnt have one.

Tar-Elendil · 06-01-2002, 07:23 PM

yea itd be a death blow for something besides the nazgul. whenever a weapon struck him it was destroyed. but merry's sword had spells wound about it and was of westernesse. im sure eowyn had a toothpick of a sword out of one the hoards in meduseld:P

Cirdan · 06-01-2002, 08:36 PM

It is vague. Eowyn dismounts the Rider, Merry drives his blade in (to an invisible being???) the sinew business, then Eowyn strikes and her sword shatters, THEN the crown rolled away and the cry went up.

Nazgul: "Hinder me! Thou Fool! No living man may hinder me!"

Eowyn: "But no living man am I! You look upon a woman."

It seems as though the setup is that gender is the "loophole", but race may be as well.

Any bets on how it will be played up in the movie?

Tar-Elendil · 06-01-2002, 08:38 PM

it can go either way..ill try to find the quote

Tar-Elendil · 06-01-2002, 08:41 PM

"Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."
if it meant gender im sure hed say "a man" or "men"
"man" represents race in my opinion

Cirdan · 06-01-2002, 08:58 PM

Well, it had to be a team effort. Neither could have killed it alone. Had Eowyn not slain the mount it is very doubtful that a hobbit would have stood a chance alone against the Nazgul, magic blade or no.

Tar-Elendil · 06-01-2002, 09:00 PM

I agree with you on that :P

Tar-Elendil · 06-01-2002, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Any bets on how it will be played up in the movie?

i wanna see the Nazguls steed more than anything in the upcoming two movies (Save Minas Tirith. thats gonna be awesome:P)
im afraid its gonna end up being really cheesy

06-01-2002, 02:49 AM	#21
Eruviel Greenleaf Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lyonesse Posts: 4,547	I did. __________________ Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK!

06-01-2002, 08:31 AM	#22
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	It was definitely slim pickens on the women in the story. I agree, Tolkien didn't know what to write for the women. Seems like almost all of them cept Lobelia had to be "Beautiful". What a burden! I've wondered about the orcs too. Seems like their mommas would be inclined to eat their young, being of such fine character and all. I'm glad LoTR isn't a chick story tho, I love it so! __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

06-01-2002, 12:06 PM	#23
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Bleh...a woman in the Fellowship, in my opinion, would have ruined the story. Perhaps Tolkien was sexist, but he grew up in SEXIST TIMES. Personally, I was glad to finally find a book that doesn't just 'throw in a strong female character' to be politically correct (they're doing that in movies too...ahem, A Knight's Tale?). I know, I know, it was before all the worry about PC came, but still. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

06-01-2002, 01:32 PM	#24
Eruviel Greenleaf Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lyonesse Posts: 4,547	I agree that having a woman in the Fellowship would not have worked, and Tolkien can perhaps be forgiven for his sexism considering where and when he is coming from. Leave those sorts of female characters to more contemparary fantasy __________________ Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK!

06-01-2002, 01:55 PM	#25
sun-star Lady of Letters Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England Posts: 2,476	I didn't really notice there were no women in the fellowship. Doesn't make a difference to me. I think that if they're good characters, it doesn't matter if they're male or female - they're just people. __________________ And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool.

06-01-2002, 06:56 PM	#29
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	i remember...but merry isnt a man. i know the words..i believe they were spoken by glorfindel to the king of gondor when the witch king retreated back to thr north. "He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill. But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving intot he ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his might knee." goes on eowyn stabbed "between crown and mantle as the great shoulders bowed before her." merry had a sword of westernesse. i dont see why or how eowyn's blow could have done anything to the witch king. if there is some text that says otherwise please tell me. __________________ Why can we not be sober..

06-01-2002, 07:02 PM	#30
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	oh..and i believe it was "by the hand of Man" or "Men" or sumtin..as in the whole race of Man.. __________________ Why can we not be sober..

06-01-2002, 07:15 PM	#32
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Witch King and Eowyn Witch King death thread __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

06-01-2002, 07:17 PM	#33
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	eowyns sword shattered into a buncha little piece when she hit em.. no theyre not Men. look at treebeard's poem thingy..he made a new rhyme for the Halflings since they didnt have one. __________________ Why can we not be sober..

06-01-2002, 07:23 PM	#34
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	yea itd be a death blow for something besides the nazgul. whenever a weapon struck him it was destroyed. but merry's sword had spells wound about it and was of westernesse. im sure eowyn had a toothpick of a sword out of one the hoards in meduseld:P __________________ Why can we not be sober..

06-01-2002, 08:36 PM	#35
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	It is vague. Eowyn dismounts the Rider, Merry drives his blade in (to an invisible being???) the sinew business, then Eowyn strikes and her sword shatters, THEN the crown rolled away and the cry went up. Nazgul: "Hinder me! Thou Fool! No living man may hinder me!" Eowyn: "But no living man am I! You look upon a woman." It seems as though the setup is that gender is the "loophole", but race may be as well. Any bets on how it will be played up in the movie? __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

06-01-2002, 08:38 PM	#36
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	it can go either way..ill try to find the quote __________________ Why can we not be sober..

06-01-2002, 08:41 PM	#37
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	"Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall." if it meant gender im sure hed say "a man" or "men" "man" represents race in my opinion __________________ Why can we not be sober..

06-01-2002, 08:58 PM	#38
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Well, it had to be a team effort. Neither could have killed it alone. Had Eowyn not slain the mount it is very doubtful that a hobbit would have stood a chance alone against the Nazgul, magic blade or no. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

06-01-2002, 09:00 PM	#39
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	I agree with you on that :P __________________ Why can we not be sober..

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