Half-Elves

[Sister Golden Hair]

Also remember that Dior was born after Luthien and Beren came back. They were both mortal then, so Dior was born mortal.

[Ñólendil]

Tuor is named as an exception and was the only Man ever to become, essentially, an Elf. He did the opposite of what Lúthien did. There was no reason whatsoever for Tuor's immortality to be granted to "the other members of his family", unless you mean his descendants. His son was Eärendil, who was given the choice of fate, and his grandsons were Elrond and Elros, who also were given choices.

[Willow Oran]

I'm so confused. Why is it that Elrond's children had a choice between mortality and immortality, while Elros's children didn't? It doesn't make sense to me.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Tuor is named as an exception and was the only Man ever to become, essentially, an Elf. He did the opposite of what Lúthien did. There was no reason whatsoever for Tuor's immortality to be granted to "the other members of his family", unless you mean his descendants. His son was Eärendil, who was given the choice of fate, and his grandsons were Elrond and Elros, who also were given choices.

Where is it said that Tuor became an Elf, and thereby became immortal? Letters or HoME? The Sil says he sailed into the West with Idril, and leaves their fate unknown.

[Ñólendil]

I'm so confused. Why is it that Elrond's children had a choice between mortality and immortality, while Elros's children didn't? It doesn't make sense to me.

It baffles many people. I don't know myself.

Where is it said that Tuor became an Elf, and thereby became immortal? Letters or HoME? The Sil says he sailed into the West with Idril, and leaves their fate unknown.

I thought it was said in The Silmarillion, but is is certainly made clear in the Letters.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Willow Oran
I'm so confused. Why is it that Elrond's children had a choice between mortality and immortality, while Elros's children didn't? It doesn't make sense to me.

It is certainly a good question.

Perhaps one may see it this way: Mortality was given as a gift to Men, so being a Man may have been considered a better fate than being an Elf? Elros and his descendants did after all live more than 400 years before their decay began. It seems to be a life long enough.

[Reumandar]

Originally posted by Ñólendil

I thought it was said in The Silmarillion, but is is certainly made clear in the Letters.

it does say so in the silmarillion, in the end of "Of tuor and the fall of gondolin" it say's

But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate was sundered from the fate of Men

but then again it might not count since it was "sung"

[Artanis]

but then again it might not count since it was "sung"

Yes, I need a more clear statement than this one.
Seems like I have to read the letters. Soon.

[Ñólendil]

I'll save you the trouble, from letter #155:

Tuor wed Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and 'it is supposed' (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited 'immortality': an exception either way.

Apparently you will get no more definite statement than that found in the Silmarillion.

[Artanis]

I'll save you the trouble

It won't be any trouble, only pleasure. But thanks.

Apparently you will get no more definite statement than that found in the Silmarillion.

OK, so it's clear that it's unclear.

[Tar-Elenion]

JRRT seems to actually confirm it a little later in the cited letter:
"Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God."

Note JRRT states that Tuor was altered by Eru.

[cian]

"Elrond chose to be among Elves. His children -- with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was CelebrÃ*an dtr. of Galadriel -- have to make their choices." JRRT

Hmmm.

[Christiana]

er..well..the neklace arwen wore was,literaly,"the Evenstar"and the symbol of her immortality.

[Ñólendil]

er..well..the neklace arwen wore was,literaly,"the Evenstar"and the symbol of her immortality.

Is this said anywhere in a book? It certainly seems to be behind the concept of Peter Jackson's Fellowship, but I don't remember reading that.

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Artanis
Mating with an orc, what an utterly disgusting thought! But still - the southerner friend of Bill Ferny in Bree was said to look more than half as a goblin....

Hey! Don't knock it till you've tried it!

The necklace in the movie?

A cheap substitute for the elfstone glorfindel left on the bridge.

Arwen and Aragorn plighted their troth in lorein, but nothing official was going to happen until Aragorn became king of both the southern and northern realms.

And damnit you know she gave the damned necklace she was wearing to the ringbearer anyway!

[Ñólendil]

I thought she gave him a white stone?

[Blackheart]

Yes... A white stome necklace.... her place in the boat- you know?

She gave it to Frodo.

Aragorn got the elfstone, the elessar, from Glorfindel, which also by the way had "magic" powers.... It was apparantly one of two made by Celebrimbor and had "powers" supposedly associated with healing...

Aragorn was already a dunaden, at the time fellowship is formed he is about 80 years of age, if memory serves. I don't think he would either accept, nor want, any hint of immortality, especially since he was Elindil's heir... that whole little problem of the alkalabeth?

[Ñólendil]

You must be tired. I think by "Glorfindel" you mean "Galadriel".

And what do you mean "Aragorn was already a Dunadan"? Wasn't he a Dúnadan the day he was born?

As for the Elfstone story, I do have a recollection of that. I think that idea that Gandalf brought it back from the Blessed Realm is more acceptable though, as the Celebrimbor idea involved Celebrimbor of Gondolin. As you know in the Lord of the Rings Celebrimbor was a Fëanorian. Something strange about that Gandalf ... he served Manwe and Varda, but his character is so much like Nienna, and he has certain powers (from which he seems to have gotten his Quenderin name) that really go along with Irmo, and he brings the Elessar back to Middle-earth from Yavanna!

[Blackheart]

BAh. Yes I am tired and anyway- he didn't get it from Arwen no matter which version you want to cleave to.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Blackheart

Hey! Don't knock it till you've tried it!

Some things are better left unexplored. Besides, I'm already married.

Yes... A white stome necklace.... her place in the boat- you know?

So, the necklace was given to Frodo by Arwen, and at the same time she told him that he may go to the West if he wished, when the time was due. But the gem was meant as a gift of memory and aid in troubled hours, and not actually as a symbol of a 'place in the boat'. After all, both Sam and Bilbo went, as Ringbearers, and it was as a Ringbearer Frodo was admitted into the West.