Moria bridge and gate

[Gordis]

Mordor order, that's what they need. Real good Mordor order!

[Mari]

Right

[kerbouchard]

I pretty much agree with the general thrust of the arguments here concerning the balrog, but read more below. However, I would say that the Orcs did guard a "choke point". There was a guard left at the gate. Aragorn slew the captain and the rest fled shrieking. Remember, the orcs were sent there to seize the hobbits (or kill them and bring back the bodies). And Moria is huge, so the Orcs probable feared most the Fellowship getting lost in there and taking weeks to root out. So what do they do? They try to trap them. They open a fiery chasm in teh hall leading to the bridge (the fire is more impassable than a line of orcs) and they leave a guard at the front Gate.

If by chance the fellowship got across the bridge they should have had orcs behind them, pursuing across the bridge and orcs in front blocking the exit. That way they could have trapped them. So in fact the Orcs set up two choke points. The fiery chasm and the Main gate.

Why did the fellowship get around the fiery chasm? Because the orcs had no map of Moria, they just knew the main routes, and they are orcs not "the Wise" so they really figured they would root them out somewhere in Moria and if any got away the guards at the gate would get them.

The balrog was just a wild card. He was a Maia too, a servant of Sauron only slightly less in stature. The balrog stays in Moria because he is painfully aware of his mortality. He doesn't know what the world is like outside these days, but he does know that the Noldor were the biggest balrog bane of all time (the only balrogs that got killed were killed by Noldor like Glorfindel and Ecthelion) and for all he knows Lorien is full of them. He might dispatch a few dozen, but in the end, if he goes to fight High Elves alone, he will die.

So my assumption is that Sauron sent in the orcs, said, find Mr. Balrog if you can and tell him i ask for his assistance in this and then Moria will be his. so the balrog comes along for the fun, because it will help ensure another age of peace for himself.

[Alcuin]

These are really good points, but I’d like to quibble on a couple of them.

First of all, I don’t believe the Balrog – Durin’s Bane – was Sauron’s “servant” in any fashion. He probably saw himself as a kind of ally, and he almost unquestionably knew Sauron from the good old days in Angband and Utumno; but Durin’s Bane seems to me to have seen himself (to use the vernacular pronoun) as an independent entity or power. It was he who had driven the Dwarves out of Mordor, and he who kept them out after the Battle of Azanulbizar. No doubt he understood that the Orcs reported regularly to Dol Guldur – and to Orthanc: according to Tolkien’s own notes cited in Reader’s Companion to Lord of the Rings, messengers from Moria informed Saruman about the battle at the Bridge of Khazad-dûm before Sauron found out about it. But the Orcs were useful nonetheless; and inside Moria, they did not dare disobey the landlord.

Moreover, if Saruman coveted the One Ring, how much more would the Balrog of Moria sought to obtain it? Durin’s Bane almost certainly knew nothing about the One Ring, even if he might have found himself unusually attracted to the party invading his realm from the West Gate. That means that the orcs guarding the broken Great Gates were probably normally stationed there: perhaps their numbers were somewhat increased, but that would indicate that the Balrog was exercising better command-and-control than he appears in the rest of the story that we have, in which he seems to act as little more than the feared leader of an unruly mob, a dreadful despot, but not a terribly competent or courageous one.

I believe that as far as Durin’s Bane was concerned, Moria was his – not Sauron’s, not Balin’s, not Durin’s Folk, and certainly not some bunch of interlopers. Perhaps he relished a fight on the bridge; perhaps he was just an arrogant jerk; but he responded as might a petty tyrant, a kind of Black Knight guarding a bridge: you’re on my turf, and you’re not crossing my territory.

[Ingwe]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Mordor order, that's what they need. Real good Mordor order!

I really like that idea. An even better order is one led by the forces of Angband!

The Balrog of Moria was like a Witch-King sort of figure, except he was such that of Morgoth. Although his ally is Sauron and he would be the master, the Balrog was now either the last Balrog alive, or may have been just one of two who were still left. I've heard both ways, not sure which to believe.

Since Gothmog (the Balrog) was gone, Durin's Bane now had his position, in a manner of speaking.

The Witch-King ruled over Angmar, and the Balrog ruled over Moria. Both of them were more of a direct threat to Middle Earth than Sauron was because Sauron was quite a bit incapacitated since what he would refer to as "the incident".

There was also some evidence of the Balrog perhaps 'speaking' words to nullify a spell from Gandalf. The Balrog was dead-set on keeping his kingdom under the mountains, and Moria to the Balrog was like Mordor to Sauron.

The Balrog would respond to Sauron's influence I think, but he also has a similar influence. I doubt the Ring was very fascinating to him, but it could have been. But the Balrog was ancient, and knew of powers far greater than that of the Ring - his master who had been caste out. Most in Middle Earth at this time weren't around to witness the great power of Morgoth, once the greatest of the Valar. Sauron was little more than a magician in comparison but the Balrog was probably on a similar level to Sauron.

[Gordis]

Hmm... interesting thoughts, Ingwe.
But if you compare Barlogs with Nazgul, the equivalent of the WK would be Gothmog, the late (and much regretted ) head of the army of Morgoth. As for Durin's Bane, he was like one of the lesser nazgul, number 6 or 8...a former underling and the last of his kind maybe.
He was not too keen on building kingdoms, he was more set on survival and keeping his caves free of vermin.

[barrelrider110]

[QUOTE=CAB;637978]I have to think that this question has been asked before, but I didn't see any old threads about it so…

When the Ring-company was passing through Moria, why in the world didn't the Moria forces place a strong guard by the bridge and/or gate? In another thread, Alcuin recently used a good descriptive word for places such as these - chokepoints. Weren't the bridge and gate essentially perfect chokepoints in this situation? The single narrow bridge (as opposed to several, wider bridges) over the chasm was actually designed to be a chokepoint. (It was intended as a defense against outside attackers, but would have worked equally well against those who would try to escape Moria in a situation such as this.)

So why didn't the Moria force choose to utilize the tremendous advantage they possessed at the bridge and gate and instead made the seemingly very poor decision to set the place on fire and confront the company at an obviously less crucial barrier?
QUOTE]

A fatal tactical error on the part of the enemy. Claus Von Clausewitz (generally considered the father of modern warfare) called it "the fog of war." Similar blunders have happened quite frequently in the history of armed conflict.

The Balrog and Orcs had expected the company to come by the main road; however the company detoured through the chamber of Marzarbul. I think the attack was very hastily arranged. If the attack had been better planned, it would have happened at night so the Orcs could have pursued the Fellowship out of the gate if necessay, and they probably would have stationed enough fighters to hold the bridge, at least for enough time to catch their quarry in-between.

I believe the presence of the Fellowship in Moria was quite unexpected by the enemy. The Orcs were probably being mustered there for an attack on Rivendell to be led by the Balrog, and not setting in wait for an ambush.

When Pippin dropped the stone into the well, it alerted the enemy whose main force was too far away. By the time the Fellowship was overtaken they had nearly reached the gate, so the enemy had to move quickly without proper preparations.

[Alcuin]

I gather that, had the Nine Walkers entered from the East – from the Great Gate – the response would have been “better” by the defenders, the Balrog and Orcs. But the Nine Walkers entered from an unexpected direction – the West Gate, guarded by the Watcher in the Water, a seemingly unique creature – and the response was haphazard, though intended to be overwhelming. The Balrog and his rabble clearly expected to take the Company of the Ring in the Chamber of Mazarbul and eliminate them: that plan would almost certainly have succeeded but for the presence of Gandalf. He shut the door at the top of the stairs outside the Chamber. The Balrog was surely as surprised as Gandalf to encounter something as powerful as he in his domain: Gandalf was not like the Balin and the Dwarves, and not like random intruders of the likes of Aragorn, who sometimes escaped and carried word of the terror of Moria to the outside, thereby making further intrusions less likely except by the foolhardy (and easily destroyed).

Gandalf was either a very powerful, spell-working Elf or – another Maia. Whether the Balrog knew the nature of Radagast and Saruman, his “neighbors”, is a matter that can be debated; however, he certainly recognized that whatever was on the other side of that door was manipulating the closing spell – and that it was a real threat to him in a way that nothing else since the War of Wrath had been. He had to get it out of Moria and keep it out – for all he knew, this could have been a scouting party for another attack.

I don’t believe Sauron confided in the Balrog the nature of the Ring, or even that he was looking for it – though a clever Umaia might have figured that out for himself. The Balrog might well have been drawn by the evil One Ring, whether he recognized that lure or not; but he was certainly interested in eliminating Gandalf and his companions once and for all. He seems simply to be unprepared to deal with such a threat, and he fails to have done the obvious thing and beforehand closed off the one retreat of the Company of the Ring down the stairs on the other side of the far door. To me, that strongly suggests a high degree of cunning and intelligence, but also considerable lazy moration – an oversight that led to a permanent end to Durin’s Bane.

[barrelrider110]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I don’t believe Sauron confided in the Balrog the nature of the Ring, or even that he was looking for it – though a clever Umaia might have figured that out for himself. The Balrog might well have been drawn by the evil One Ring, whether he recognized that lure or not; but he was certainly interested in eliminating Gandalf and his companions once and for all. He seems simply to be unprepared to deal with such a threat, and he fails to have done the obvious thing and beforehand closed off the one retreat of the Company of the Ring down the stairs on the other side of the far door. To me, that strongly suggests a high degree of cunning and intelligence, but also considerable lazy moration – an oversight that led to a permanent end to Durin’s Bane.

IMHO I don’t think laziness was the Balrog’s undoing; I think it was tactical stupidity.

The Balrog and rest of the rabble in Moria underestimated the might of the nine walkers and had little or no plan for contingencies.

The bad guys did have their escape route cut off, or so they thought. The Fellowship was expected to exit the 21st hall by the eastern arch. If they had taken the main road into the Second hall (at the western end) their way would have been blocked by the burning fissure. By taking an unlikely detour through the Chamber or Marzarbul they entered the Second hall at the eastern end and thereby escaped the trap.

The enemy thought to wipe out the intruders in the chamber or overtake them on the stair beyond the chamber’s eastern door. They were surprised by the stout resistance and as Alcuin observed, the Balrog perceived a mighty adversary in Gandalf. He may even have said to his minions “this foe is beyond any of you.”

Another point worth mentioning is that the other end of the bridge was not unguarded. There was a guard set at the gate. However, when Aragorn swiftly dispatched their captain they fled. There is no mention of how many were stationed there, but it couldn’t have been many.

On another note, I don’t think the Balrog showed itself to Balin’s ill-fated colony. The book of Marzarbul does not mention Durin’s Bane. Also, it took the Moria orcs five years to eliminate the Dwarves. I think if the Balrog were involved the end would have come much sooner.

[Amael]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Hmm... interesting thoughts, Ingwe.
But if you compare Barlogs with Nazgul, the equivalent of the WK would be Gothmog, the late (and much regretted ) head of the army of Morgoth. As for Durin's Bane, he was like one of the lesser nazgul, number 6 or 8...a former underling and the last of his kind maybe.
He was not too keen on building kingdoms, he was more set on survival and keeping his caves free of vermin.

... And I think an undisturbed rest. I get the feeling that he just wanted to be left alone, as evil as he was. Gandalf certainly wouldn't let a threat like a Balrog go uncontested, and the Balrog probably knew he would be facing up against this strange new foe. The Balrog would never stop hunting Gandalf if he did get out before the Balrog got to him. Gandalf knew he had to fight his equal and opposite in Moria or else the Balrog would continue to be a thorn in his side. Once dealt with, if successful, the Balrog would have sought refuge back in Moria once again, and went back to sleep, as it seems that the Balrog just wants to be left alone. No Dwarves, Elves, Men, Hobbits, or Wizards. If the Goblins were to awaken the Balrog before his nap is over, the Goblins wouldn't be in very good shape either.

Even evil spirits like Balrogs have a place they call "home", as dank and dreary as it was. Having been 'evicted' from his previous home in Angband because his master didn't pay the rent to the Valar, the Balrog found a new place to make his domain. Durin's Bane works best alone. The orcs and goblins guarding it justt happened to be an added bonus.

[barrelrider110]

Originally Posted by Amael

... And I think an undisturbed rest. I get the feeling that he just wanted to be left alone, as evil as he was.

The Balrog perceived a worthy adversary when he contested Gandalf at the back door of the Chamber of Marzarbul. If he just wanted to be left alone he would have just let the fellowship go. Why then, did he pursue them to the bridge?

[Attalus]

I suspect the Balrog recognized Gandalf as one of his mortal enemies, an unfallen Maia. That would be enough for him to pursue and attempt to destroy him.

[Alcuin]

I agree with Attalus.

A Maiar obedient to the Valar wasn’t an enemy Durin’s Bane could allow to escape. The last time he’d seen another Maia, with the possible exceptions of Sauron and Saruman, it was trying to kill him.

Think about it from his mendacious, malicious perspective. All the other balrogs were annihilated during the end of the War of Wrath except him. If word got out that there was still a balrog about, the Valar might come after him. After all, that’s he would do in their place. And no one would miss him but the orcs.