What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I didn't like them either, esp. Faramir, but I am cool with them. Denethor's portrayal, in contrast, makes me spit and swear.

I must have blocked my memory. Denethor was a hatchet job. In the book he was much more noble. Unfortunately the strain finally over took him and he went mad with dispair. In the movie, he appeared to be a madman. Sauron may have been an improvement.

Originally Posted by Gordis

So much time wasted on that and Aragorn-Arwen additions that could have been used for something vital.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Gordis

As a matter of fact, the whole battle of Helm's Deep could have been omitted saving the time for the principal scenes: the Parley with Saruman, Gandalf and WK at the Gate, Houses of Healing, Mordor scenes etc.

Not a bad idea. I could have lived without the olympic torch orc.

Bree was a bit darker for my tastes, but I could live with it.

Dark wigs? not a bad thought, but wrong hair color is minor compared to some of the portrayals in the movie. Although this is a minor issue that could have been corrected with little effort.

Regarding battle scenes from ROTK. What about the scrubbing bubbles (army of dead)? They really cleaned up the battlefield of enemies.

Regarding Rohan: Never considered what horses would like. Makes some sense though.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

Although this is a minor issue that could have been corrected with little effort.

This is exactly what bugs me here. Such a minor thing, so easily done right - why had PJ change the brother's hair color? Because he knew better than Tolkien? Here he can't argue the lack of screen time, necessity to "enrich" the character etc.
Same with tomatoes everywhere (Weathertop, Denethor's scene). Tolkien expressly objected to tomatoes in ME in his letters. It is as if PJ inserted them just to spite the late Professor. What - couldn't he find some other vegetable or fruit for Denethor to make a mess with?

What about the scrubbing bubbles (army of dead)? They really cleaned up the battlefield of enemies.

Silly, disgusting, fake. Everyone was cheated of glory by some green jelley: Aragorn, Eomer, the soldiers of Gondor, even the valliant enemy. Why had all these Gondorians and Rohirrim to die? Only because Aragorn brought the jelley a bit too late?
It had to be a Great victory of Men led by the King Returned and the King of Rohan brought back to light from the Shadow. What is it in the movie? -It is the victory of supernatural forces over some orcs. And PJ claims to remain true to the spirit of the book.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Now we're back on topic.

I am in agreement with most of the last series of posts.

The top annoyance for me is the 30-60 minutes of invented material that adds nothing to the film except time while taking away from Tolkien's story. THEN, PJ has the gall to try to explain leaving out so much of the original because of time constraints.

No wait. That's my second to the top annoyance. Top is the changing of the characters' personalities in almost every character.

Like Gordis, I'm fine with no Bombadil or Barrow Downs.
I'm fine with the props, casting, and effects.
Even the NZ location doesn't bother me too much, though they could have done more to make it look bigger and fit Middle Earth better.

Almost every gripe I have personally, and have seen expressed by others, comes down to two things: screenplay and direction.

I don't think that's coincidence.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

This is exactly what bugs me here. Such a minor thing, so easily done right - why had PJ change the brother's hair color? Because he knew better than Tolkien? Here he can't argue the lack of screen time, necessity to "enrich" the character etc.

It has puzzled me also. And surely it was due to wig-shortage, after all, about every male Elf in the movie is equiped with one.

[Ant]

I hate the balrog too! The Balrog is NOT some 20' huge winged demon. He looks awsome sure, but not for LOTR's. It's simply another thing added to appeal to kids and to jazz things up. The makers of the movie clearly dont know how to make something scarey without it being some 'in your face' monster (see my point on Nazguls earlier). I prefered the quiet frightfulness that Tolkien grasped so well.

I hate the orcs. Thats not how I pictured them at all.

Irish hobbit....scottish dwarf. Blegh.

If ya gonna get Liv Tyler in a movie......ya gotta give her a nudey scene *nods* It wouldn't have been with the feel of the movie, but what the heck. He added a load of crap...I coulda forgiven him had we had a nudey Liv. (Oh...and Galadriel too)

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Ant

If ya gonna get Liv Tyler in a movie......ya gotta give her a nudey scene *nods* It wouldn't have been with the feel of the movie, but what the heck. He added a load of crap...I coulda forgiven him had we had a nudey Liv. (Oh...and Galadriel too)

[stern voice]You can't have nude Liv and Glad. It is against the spirit of the books.[/stern voice]
At best you can have some nude hobbits in the bath and a nude Gandalf on Caradhras.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Not to get too far off topic here but I wonder whether there is some reason none of the non-Hobbit women seemed to sport anything more than an A-cup. I wonder if Fran Walsh forbade PJ from casting any women with anything but a boyish figure. Certainly Liv Tyler and Cate Blanchett are beautiful but neither are anything approaching full-figured.

Now that I re-evaluate the title of the thread, I don't suppose I'm off-topic after all. Another flaw in the movie is not enough full-figured women.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Not to get too far off topic here but I wonder whether there is some reason none of the non-Hobbit women seemed to sport anything more than an A-cup. I wonder if Fran Walsh forbade PJ from casting any women with anything but a boyish figure. Certainly Liv Tyler and Cate Blanchett are beautiful but neither are anything approaching full-figured.

I think Tolkien always described Elf women as willowy - though I am not sure.

As for Eowyn, she could hardly pass for a man if she had D-cups.
Merry at least should have felt them.

Eowyn

[feawen]

As a fuller figured woman i guess with the above post! why is middle earth filled with boyish hobbit woman and stunning thin flat chested elves? where are all the normal beauties? Inner beauty! Surely the books taught us to not judge by appearances, if a humble hobbit can save the world surely an average looking women exists in middle earth!

so anyway rant over! I am sure you're gone over the whole elves in Helms deep. But my it gets on my wick! It never happened! What did it being to the whole thing? Nothing it being nothing expect from death elves. If you wanted to show that the war was going on in other places stick Legolas on a wall have him look towards home and say people are fighting, just like the books!

Oh and now im started, where was the scoring of the shire. Make a big point that the world will never be the same and at the end the shires not changed oh ya thats good! Not!

And i would have liked to see now of the houses of healing one of my fav bits in the books and you get 3 minutes when you get who knows how long on arwen. Who asks i never liked her anyway!

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

The Houses of Healing could have told the audience so much about Aragorn, his personality, leadership style, and nobility. Instead we have a generation of movie-goers who think the King Elessar is an angst-ridden warrior with self-esteem issues.

[Ant]

Very true about the houses of healing and the scouring of the shire, but I have to admit that if the movie had gone on much longer id likely have died of boredom.

We also have to remember that LOTRs the movie is basically an action movie where the books are if anything...well I guess its a drama. But its the kind of book that you couldn't really put a tag on. Theres so much to it.

With that in mind, there are somethings that are considered important by PJ and many that are considered irrelevant, even to the point of adding things in order to add extra dimensions.

I must say though that perhaps the most irritating thing for me about the movies -and its been said already- is Elrond. That dude who plays him must be THE worst possible choice. He's not handsome. He's not fair to look at. He has really wierd eyebrows..and why does he look so grumpy all the time? When Merry and Pippin come running out at the council and say they're going too...whats with Elronds face?!

[Ant]

(And as for Bombadil, i'm truly glad PJ left him alone. Had he been in the movies, he'd have been a nightmare. PJ would probably have gotten Sly Stallone to play him. Hehe)

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Ant

Very true about the houses of healing and the scouring of the shire, but I have to admit that if the movie had gone on much longer id likely have died of boredom.

I think that the they could have shown the scouring of the shire. I think it would have been difficult to do, since it is easy to make it seem to much of a let down from the defeat of Sauron.

Originally Posted by Ant

We also have to remember that LOTRs the movie is basically an action movie where the books are if anything...well I guess its a drama. But its the kind of book that you couldn't really put a tag on. Theres so much to it.

LOTR was definitely an action film. I think PJ&Co wanted to use the Tolkien name to see as many tickets as possible. In this respect, Mission accomplished. I think the film could still have succeeded if it stayed closer to the source material. The film did a decent job of giving the flavor of LOTR, but it fell short in adapting the book to film.

Originally Posted by Ant

With that in mind, there are somethings that are considered important by PJ and many that are considered irrelevant, even to the point of adding things in order to add extra dimensions.

I must say though that perhaps the most irritating thing for me about the movies -and its been said already- is Elrond. That dude who plays him must be THE worst possible choice. He's not handsome. He's not fair to look at. He has really wierd eyebrows..and why does he look so grumpy all the time? When Merry and Pippin come running out at the council and say they're going too...whats with Elronds face?!

Disappointing characters for me: Aragorn, Frodo, Faramir, Denethor, Merry/Pippin, Awren.

Aragorn: Too wishy washy at times. It seemed that he did not want the kingship.

Frodo: Too much like baggage at times, although he had his moments.

Faramir: Barely recognized him in the movies.

Denethor: Why anyone in Gondor woulf follow this madman is beyond me.

Merry/Pippin: Too much used for comedic relief.

Awren: Tried too hard to expand her role. Could have possibly had her in a flashback with Aragorn.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by feawen

Oh and now im started, where was the scoring of the shire. Make a big point that the world will never be the same and at the end the shires not changed oh ya thats good! Not!

This is where I think the movie-makers handled it well enough. You get to see the scourging in Galadriel's mirror, neatly explaining this will happen in they fail, so if they succeed, Jackson doesn't have to add another 30 minutes of movie. I think it worked well enough, even though it did mess up some of the themes Tolkien included in the book.

And i would have liked to see now of the houses of healing one of my fav bits in the books and you get 3 minutes when you get who knows how long on arwen. Who asks i never liked her anyway!

Ah, the Houses of Healing, I would have loved to see more of that as well! It is a lovely chapter that could have worked on film IMO.

While I agree some pieces of Arwen could have been cut, I do like the fact that the movie shows more of her. In the book, on my first reading, I hadn't had the foggiest where this Elf-woman comes from and who she was. The movie-Arwen has a bit more substance. That said, I had hoped they would have done it differently nevertheless. I quite liked the scene where she's leaving and has a vision of her son, but all the nonsense of her fate being tied to the ring or that silly bit with the nazgul was somewhat a waste of time.

Originally Posted by Ant

I must say though that perhaps the most irritating thing for me about the movies -and its been said already- is Elrond. That dude who plays him must be THE worst possible choice. He's not handsome. He's not fair to look at. He has really wierd eyebrows..and why does he look so grumpy all the time? When Merry and Pippin come running out at the council and say they're going too...whats with Elronds face?!

I don't mind Hugo Weaving, and I'm sure he's a good actor, but he is just not Elrond. The frown, oh the needless frown! Why? Elrond, who is described as wise and kind as summer, a grumpy frowning guy? No, no, no. I'm pretty sure the man's capable of a smile. I blame mis-directing on this one.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Not to dwell on the Arwen thing but in the book it was supposed to be a surprise. We were supposed to wonder why in the world Aragorn didn't go for Eowyn, and what his cryptic explanations really meant. I personally liked the mystery not being revealed until the end. It was for us the readers just as it was for Frodo and the Fellowship.

As for not having time to add Scouring, Houses, etc. I never thought this story was suited to a theatrical set of movies in the first place. Make it a full-season miniseries on HBO or Showtime and show EVERYthing. That would have been awesome.

[Gordis]

That would have been a good idea - to make a TV series. Does anything preclude Tolkien Trust to sell the rights to the TV series to someone other than Jackson and K?

I think BBC could have made an awesome series out of LOTR...

[BeardofPants]

Depends on who they attached to it.

Russell T. Davies.

[Grey_Wolf]

Well - bearing in mind the thoroughness of BBC productions - see The Impressionists, all the different crime series, comedy shows etc, I think we need not feel overly anxious about the Trilogy being treated with anything but respect.

[Kennashi]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Same with tomatoes everywhere (Weathertop, Denethor's scene). Tolkien expressly objected to tomatoes in ME in his letters. It is as if PJ inserted them just to spite the late Professor. What - couldn't he find some other vegetable or fruit for Denethor to make a mess with?

[Grey_Wolf]

My conclusion to all the changes in the story is that PJ desperately wanted to make the trilogy his story - there are after all 10 million people who has read LOTR. This was PJ's vision.

The omitting and changing of the personalities of the characters and LOTR in itself can then be explained as simply this:

This is my project, so dont whine about what I have done - live with it!