Favorite Elf-King?

[brownjenkins]

húrin was being watched at the time, in fact, you could argue that he should have expected this to be the case, so in some ways it was ungrateful of him to even approach gondolin... wasn't this the event that gave melkor the general vicinity in which to look?

[brownjenkins]

i terms of the lost tales version... this was written around 1917, while the one from the silmarillion dates to around 1930 (christopher says as much in lost tales 2)... granted, the silmarillion version was never really completed by jrr and lacks in detail in many ways, but it represents a more modern working of the general themes

[Artanis]

Do you mean the Quenta Noldorinwa? IIRC, all it does is to give a very short résumé, and it even refers to the Fall of Gondolin from the Tales.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
But when it was convenient for Turgon he did listen to Húrin:

But you can't really blame Turgon for following the advice of Húrin and Huor there. It wasn't only convenient, it was sensible. Turgon was at that time become High King of the Noldor, and Hurin was right in that Morgoth had always feared him.

Now Turgon was very ungrateful. He's my favorite ungrateful ñoldorian king.

Yes, he was ungrateful to begin with, but he did change his mind.

brownjenkins, I think you're right in that it was unwise of Húrin to go to Echoriath and seek for Gondolin. Unwise, but understandable - after all these years of torment, to seek some peace for a little while.

[Maedhros]

but Bauglir said: 'O bravest of Men,
'tis fate unfitting for thus fellhanded
warrior warfain that to worthless friends
his sword he should sell, who seek no more
to free him from fetters or his fall avenge.
While shrinking in the shadows they shake fearful
in the hungry hills hiding outcast
their league belying, lurking faithless,
he by evil lot in everlasting
dungeons droopeth doomed to torment
and anguish endless. That thy arms unchained
I had fainer far should a falchion keen
or axe with edge eager flaming
wield in warfare where the wind bloweth
the banners of battle -- such a brand as might
in my sounding smithies on the smitten anvil
of glowing steel to glad thy soul
be forged and fashioned, yea, and fair harness
and mail unmatched -- than that marred with flails
my mercy waiving thou shouldst moan enchained
neath the brazen Balrogs' burning scourges:
who art worthy to win reward and honour
as a captain of arms when cloven is mail
and shields are shorn, when they shake the hosts
of their foes like fire in fell onset.
Lo! receive my service; forswear hatred,
ancient enmity thus ill-counselled --
I am a mild master who remembers well
his servants' deeds. A sword of terror
thy hand should hold, and a high lordship
as Bauglir's champion, chief of Balrogs,
to lead o'er the lands my loud armies,
whose royal array I already furnish;
on Turgon the troll (who turned to flight
and left thee alone, now leaguered fast
in waterless wastes and weary mountains)
my wrath to wreak, and on redhanded
robber-Gnomes, rebels, and roaming Elves,
that forlorn witless the Lord of the World
defy in their folly -- they shall feel my might.
I will bid men unbind thee, and thy body comfort!
Go follow their footsteps with fire and steel,
with thy sword go search their secret dwellings;
when in triumph victorious thou returnest hither,
I have hoards unthought-of' -- but Hurin Thalion
suffered no longer silent wordless;
through clenched teeth in clinging pain,
'O accursed king', cried unwavering,
'thy hopes build not so high, Bauglir;
no tool am I for thy treasons vile,
who tryst nor troth ever true holdest--
seek traitors elsewhere.'

húrin was being watched at the time, in fact, you could argue that he should have expected this to be the case, so in some ways it was ungrateful of him to even approach gondolin... wasn't this the event that gave melkor the general vicinity in which to look?

Rubbish. Was it ungrateful for Húrin to resist all of that time in Angband, not only at his expense but that of his family too? Wasn't Húrin the one who by his actions saved Gondolin all of that time? And after 28 years of suffering in Angband you call him ungrateful. Unbelilable and sad.
Was he ungrateful when he saved Gondolin too?

granted, the silmarillion version was never really completed by jrr and lacks in detail in many ways, but it represents a more modern working of the general themes

Jeje, what Silmarillion version? The one published by CT?

[brownjenkins]

Jeje, what Silmarillion version? The one published by CT?

yes... so many of jrrt's conceptions were changed after the writing of lost tales that i think it is a mistake to use any of them as an authorative source... it may be that if tolkien had done a final rewrite of turgon's life that he may have painted him in the same light, we'll never know... but we do know that many characters developed substantially different personalities and histories when he did revist them... so i prefer to stick with the latter impressions, even if they may be less complete... it is certainly possible that he meant it to be that way

on hurin and turgon... in my eyes these characters are not black and white (in fact, none of them are, which is why they are interesting, as Artanis pointed out)

i think hurin made a mistake by approaching gondolin after being freed... does this make him evil? no... is it an understandable mistake? yes... is it ungrateful, maybe i was a bit too harsh, though i believe his not ever returning (or at least revealing it's location, which he did do) was a condition of his release from the city the first time... was this an oath? i don't remember exactly

either way, it was not the wisest move on hurin's part, but understandable under the circumstances, and i can not blame turgon for turning aside to save his city and his people from discovery

besides, if turgon let him in, who would have killed that nasty little mîm?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
as i said before, i think all the elves who heard the words of mandos and decided to continue on can be faulted as having too much pride... i think finrod was certainly the most likeable elf-king, but he was far from perfect

Well, I have never claimed he was perfect. I would like you to point out though an instance of pride in him, and I will be more than willing to concede.

[Falagar]

I think I am going to change my mind: Finrod is now officially on my top-three list of Elves.

1. Fëanor (as always)

2. Fingolfin

3. Finrod

4. Aegnor

5. Turgon or Glorfindel

Btw, SGH, like my new sig?

[brownjenkins]

well there is this passage from unfinished tales concerning galadriel:

She was proud, strong, and selfwilled, as were all the descendants of Finwe save Finarfin; and like her brother Finrod, of all her kin the nearest to her heart, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage.

this could be construed as pride (and pride is not always a bad thing in my opinion) ... of course i would be completely flip-flopping on my rant above to maedhros about not using supplemental material to back up arguments

so i concede ... he was certainly the most selfless of all the elven kings, with the possible exception of his father finarfin (who actually was named finrod early on in tolkien's writings)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Falagar
I think I am going to change my mind: Finrod is now officially on my top-three list of Elves.

Well, what brought this on?

Btw, SGH, like my new sig?

Ah, another fine quote from the Athrabeth. I'm impressed.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, what brought this on?

I wonder to. Don't play innocent SGH. What did you do to him?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
I wonder to. Don't play innocent SGH. What did you do to him?

I didn't have to do anything to him. He smacked himself in the head with a frying pan.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, what brought this on?

I read through the Athrabeth again.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I didn't have to do anything to him. He smacked himself in the head with a frying pan.

The same frying pan you accidentally were holding in your hand?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Eärniel
The same frying pan you accidentally were holding in your hand?

Well... the incident actually happened when Falagar questioned Finrod's bravery for not showing up at a particular battle. But SGH reminded him that Finrod was quite dead at the time... which seems a good enough excuse for skipping out on it. A page or two back...

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I didn't have to do anything to him. He smacked himself in the head with a frying pan.

Oh I see. He's suffering from a temporary moment of madness.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Falagar
I read through the Athrabeth again.

I think you need to read FoG again.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Oh I see. He's suffering from a temporary moment of madness.

Actually no, he just saw the light.

[Artanis]

Ha! I still think it's something fishy here. Did you perhaps feed him with Belgian chocolate?

[Thorin II]

I vote for Gil-galad. He wasn't as powerful as some of his predecessors, but I respect him for leading the Elves even as they started to decline. I don't think many (or any) of the previous High Kings would've formed an alliance with Men.