What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Gordis

That is undoubtedly true... But if it were ONLY that!

Here is a small example:
in FOTR, PJ had postulated "The Ring obeys ONLY SAURON. We CAN'T use it."

Minor thing, you would say?

But that stupid notion had a lot of consequences. They couldn't make Saruman want the Ring for himself - what for, if he can't use it? So now we have Saruman as Sauron's servant. Why then would Saruman's Uruks lead the captured hobbits west and not east over the river directly to Mordor? - no answer.

Galadriel also looks a total fool, becoming all radioactive-like about the Ring she can't even use!

And now why couldn't Gandalf take the Ring and carry it himself - if he couldn't use it?

Also, if nobody but Sauron could use the Ring, all the underlying reasoning devised by Tolkien for BOTH sides in the "Return of the King" crumbles. Why would Sauron worry who has got his Ring? Why would he be in such a hurry? Why would he offer any terms? He could have proceeded methodically, as a good strategist, and sooner or later he would have conquered the West and regained his Ring - because he was far stronger then the West.

Oh, come on! It is clear, in context, that the intent was not to say others could not utilize the ring but that no one but Sauron could control it. That makes perfect sense to me.

[Amael]

From the Gandalf's hat and staff descrepenccies to other goofups happening in the movies, to the changing of the plot and eliminating of necessary stuff adding in weird twists, it just didn't bear much resemblance to the books. What of Sauron's spirit passing over the Armies at the Black Gates as a great hand trying to grab the good guys, but a west wind too his spirit away? I mean, I half expected to see that in Return of the King, but was extremely disappointed that they didn't put that in. The Mouth of Sauron has his head removed by Aragorn where in the book he just runs off and the armies come and meet Aragorn and his forces.

[Coffeehouse]

The power of the Ring & Sauron-Sarumann
--------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Oh, come on! It is clear, in context, that the intent was not to say others could not utilize the ring but that no one but Sauron could control it. That makes perfect sense to me.

I agree Jon, the rings obeys Sauron, but that obviously does not stop everyone else from craving it, wanting to use it to their own ends. Kinda goes without saying though..
It all makes sense: Gandalf and Galadriel know the ring is of Sauron's making, and thus obeys no other master strictly speaking.
They know this, but the entire evil of the ring is that it really doesn't matter, because they'll want it for themselves anyways. Yet they show sufficient strength to leave it alone in their (near) infinite wisdom

Sarumann too, knows the owner of the ring, and he sees Sauron, with ring or no ring, to be of such power that he really would prefer not to resist the darkness of Mordor (at least until he has the ring for himself!).. thus offers an alliance.
Yet Sarumann is, like all other creatures, affected by the Ring. He knows perfectly well who made it, but the possibilities that the ring offers blinds him so much that he decides to pursue it anyways.. and I don't think he wanted to hand it over to Sauron. He wanted it for himself.
It's really a bit like Nazi-Germany and the Soviet Union during their years of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. What buying time was to the Nazis and the Soviets, getting the Ring is to Sarumann and Sauron. They both want it, they both set out to get it. We can't know what powers Sarumann could obtain with the ring, and if these powers could twarth the might of Sauron. I would guess in the end he too would become wrecked by the ring, the truth being that it always seeks its master Sauron.

Why didn't the Uruk-Hai of Sarumann head straight to Sauron after they had captured Pippin and Merry? Well basically because what we as a movie audience view as the obvious servitude of Sarumann in respect to Sauron, the Uruk-Hai may still believe Sarumann to be the one pulling the strings. After all he sends out their paychecks

[Coffeehouse]

Also..

Originally Posted by Gordis

Also, if nobody but Sauron could use the Ring, all the underlying reasoning devised by Tolkien for BOTH sides in the "Return of the King" crumbles. Why would Sauron worry who has got his Ring? Why would he be in such a hurry? Why would he offer any terms? He could have proceeded methodically, as a good strategist, and sooner or later he would have conquered the West and regained his Ring - because he was far stronger then the West.

It's true, Sauron does worry who has the Ring, to an extent I'd imagine. He believes most creatures to be seriously inferior to him, but it is possible that in Sauron's mind the Ring+Gandalf, the Ring+Galadriel or any other uniquely wise (& immortal) are combinations that would seriously raise the bar for him taking over Middle Earth.

They keyword is good strategist The cold calculations of Sauron told him, at the time that he started the war that led to his final doom (events in LOTR), that the time was ripe.
He had discovered through Gollum the wherabouts of the Ring, the House of Kings of Gondor was scattered in the winds, Gondor was weak, Rohan was under the spell of Sarumann, Moria lay dark in the abyss. Things looked very good. And just like Hitler, or Napoleon for that matter (P.S! I'm definitely not saying Sauron is the fictionalization of Hitler, as Tolkien himself has rejected), Sauron struck when he felt ready.
It looked a good strategy when he initiated it (Why wait? The fading Elves and the corrupted kingdoms of Men surely couldn't get any much worse than at the time just before the war started). Sauron seemed a good strategist when it began: He would use Sarumann to take care of Rohan and any troublesome traces of resistance, and his own forces of Mordor would wipe out the last remnants of Gondorian rule.
Of course, Sauron knows that not having the Ring is very different from having it. So the Nine ride out to fetch it. I say fetch because Sauron must have thought the task a minor obstacle. The ring being in the hands of a hobbit

But in the end he miscalculates, and he miscalculates badly. He doesn't understand the deep roots of hope and courage and love among not only Men, but Elves and Dwarves (and Ents!). He doesn't understand, quite ironically, that very small things (pun!) can do a great many things.
He thinks he has it all as he makes his moves, but with the help of misfortune, ignorance and an annoyingly omnipresent Wizard things go wrong. Another (I'm really trying to shy away from historical comparison) example is Napoleon's and Hitler's severe ignorance as to the true strength of the Russian motherland. From the outside looking fragile, yet when pressed at its hardest it does not give in but explode

So to answer why Sauron was in a hurry.. well, I don't think he was. But the time he chose I think he felt was perfectly suitable for his conquest of all Middle Earth. And he chose wrong.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

He doesn't understand, quite ironically, that very small things (pun!) can do a great many things.

I know this is corny, Coffeehouse, but as I read this part of your post, I couldn't help but think, "The Master of Chaos would have benefited from a working understanding of Chaos Theory!"

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

I know this is corny, Coffeehouse, but as I read this part of your post, I couldn't help but think, "The Master of Chaos would have benefited from a working understanding of Chaos Theory!"

Hehe I know

I think though that's one of the things Tolkien wanted to show. Despite the pre-destiny of the Ring, seeking its master Sauron, the most random(?) creatures and events take place that send the ring all the way back to Mt. Doom. In his infinite wisdom Sauron forgot to sweep his own doorway, (the ring cleverly smuggled in), before venturing out into the world.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Oh, come on! It is clear, in context, that the intent was not to say others could not utilize the ring but that no one but Sauron could control it. That makes perfect sense to me.

Not at all. You are inferring based on what you know of the story, not based on what was shown in film.

"You cannot wield it! None of us can. The One Ring answers to Sauron alone. It has no other master."

And speaking of inference that isn't film-based, good posts Coffeehouse, but very little of what you say was shown or said in the films; you're inferring in a major way.

[Gordis]

Quite so, DPR.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Not at all. You are inferring based on what you know of the story, not based on what was shown in film.

"You cannot wield it! None of us can. The One Ring answers to Sauron alone. It has no other master."

And speaking of inference that isn't film-based, good posts Coffeehouse, but very little of what you say was shown or said in the films; you're inferring in a major way.

Actually.. no

It's not inferring, it's actually describing
what the movie portays, and I have tried to be
conscious of that in my posts.

Let's see:
1. I write that Gandalf and Galadriel know
the ring is of Sauron's making, hence obeying
no other master.
The movie: Gandalf discovers that it is the One Ring.
Couple that with the intro to the movies, showing the
elves neglecting to use the three rings they received
any more, when discovering that Sauron's ring had
power of the three.
Both the movie portrayal of Gandalf resisting,
and Galadriel resisting, shows an initial willingness
to take the ring.. thus its lure. Both then show
by actions and expressions that, in Galadriel's words
"passed the test". It's a nod to the fact that the
ring, when all comes to all, possesses a fundamental
evil that is bound to Sauron. No one can change it.
I can't remember who spoke this (Gandalf?)
line (I imperfectly remember), "It would be
used out of a want to do good, but through it would
come a wielding of power too terrible to imagine".

2. I write that Sarumann, too, knows the owner of
the ring.
Through his conversation with Gandalf in Orthanc we
learn that Sarumann has in a way, given up. He sees
it as a battle that cannot be won against Sauron,
to stand against Mordor. So he decides to ally himself
with him.
But, there's more to it than a mere bowing to Sauron.
Through Gandalf's observations in the movie we
understand that Sarumann is really a very self-cented,
power-hungry wizard. He has built his base in Orthanc,
and it is not without reason that he builds his very
own, original breed of army, the Uruk Hai. So he isn't
merely copying Sauron.. He may be rivalling him!

3. I answer why I believe the Uruk Hai didn't head
straight to Mordor when having captured the two
hobbits.
The movie: Shows the white mark of Sarumann that the
Uruk Hai wear, shows the scene in Two Towers when
Sarumann and Grima Wormtongue witness the readied
Uruk Hai troops and it is a nod to the peak of Sarumann's
power, that they hail him, in his tower.
Amongst many things, this can be seen as the duality
of competing evils, Sauron in Barad-dur and Sarumann
in Orthanc.

4. I write, "The keyword is good strategist", since
Gordis mentions this.
And I think this is neatly reflected in the movie.
With the build-up to the battle on the Pelennor fields
the movie audience witness a massive outpouring of
soldiers and equipment from Mordor and beyond. It's
a awe-inspiring build-up, meant to show the terrible
odds that Gondor faces.
The self-belief of the Orc general
(can't remember his name), the doomsday warning
of the Witch King as he breaks the staff of Gandalf,
the deafening roar of the troops of Mordor at the gates
of Gondor cast against the madness of the Caretaker
of Gondor, the ill-preparedness of the soldiers in the
city, the stupidity of the Gondorian charge on Ossgiliath
to save it just prior to the battle. It's all to pitch
to us in the audience that Sauron really couldn't
have picked a better time.
The lands of Men look weak and defenseless. And Sauron
believes himself to be so strong, that despite knowing
of the defeat of Sarumann's Uruk Hai at Helms Deep,
he still goes ahead with his battleplan to take Gondor.
It portrays Sauron as an inevitable champion.
But.. he loses, and he does it by miscalculating..
"with the help of misfortune, ignorance and an annoyingly
omnipresent Wizard". And it's all there

Lastly,
5. I write, "So to answer why Sauron was in a hurry,
well, I don't think he was."
The movie: Despite losing the battle of the Pelennor
fields Sauron has 10,000+ troops standing in Mordor,
ready to fight, heavily outnumbering all the combined
forces of Men.
He bides his time, and it's only when Aragorn and the
forces of Men show up personally at the Black Gates that
he decides, alright, now I can kill you off.
The movie portays the advent of a crushing defeat
just before Gollum falls into the fires of Mt. Doom
with the ring.

I think this is not inferring. It's precisely what the movie portrays

[Jon S.]

Quite so, CH.

[Gordis]

Well, DPR, I am leaving for vacations and entrust the task to defend the point to you.
I can only say that I have seen the films in the company of a friend who has never read the books. He didn't understand why everyone lusted for the ring that "answers only to Sauron". It is NOT clear from the film, you have to read the book.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Actually.. no

It's not inferring, it's actually describing
what the movie portays, and I have tried to be
conscious of that in my posts.

Let's see:
1. I write that Gandalf and Galadriel know
the ring is of Sauron's making, hence obeying
no other master.

This, too, is an inference. Just because they know who made doesn't mean they know how it works and with whom. Besides that, the inference is wrong (or at variance with the book if you prefer). The Ring most certainly could obey another master and that is why Sauron was afraid Aragorn was wielding it.

The movie: Gandalf discovers that it is the One Ring.
Couple that with the intro to the movies, showing the
elves neglecting to use the three rings they received
any more, when discovering that Sauron's ring had
power of the three.
Both the movie portrayal of Gandalf resisting,
and Galadriel resisting, shows an initial willingness
to take the ring.. thus its lure. Both then show
by actions and expressions that, in Galadriel's words
"passed the test". It's a nod to the fact that the
ring, when all comes to all, possesses a fundamental
evil that is bound to Sauron. No one can change it.
I can't remember who spoke this (Gandalf?)
line (I imperfectly remember), "It would be
used out of a want to do good, but through it would
come a wielding of power too terrible to imagine".

So he could wield it after all.

2. I write that Sarumann, too, knows the owner of
the ring.
Through his conversation with Gandalf in Orthanc we
learn that Sarumann has in a way, given up. He sees
it as a battle that cannot be won against Sauron,
to stand against Mordor. So he decides to ally himself
with him.

This is in the movie version. Correct.

But, there's more to it than a mere bowing to Sauron.
Through Gandalf's observations in the movie we
understand that Sarumann is really a very self-cented,
power-hungry wizard. He has built his base in Orthanc,
and it is not without reason that he builds his very
own, original breed of army, the Uruk Hai. So he isn't
merely copying Sauron.. He may be rivalling him!

Not so. At all. The movie portrays Saruman as being under Sauron's control via the palantir, not working as an independent agent in rival of him.

"He may be rivaling him!" if you have read the books and know that in the original text he was rivaling him. Nothing in the movie (otherwise you'd have quoted/paraphrased it in your post) indicates the rivalry. In fact, quite the opposite is shown:

"<Scene: Isengard. Saruman is in the Chamber of the Palantir. His hand is suspended over the Stone, and a fiery light is in its depths. The eye of Sauron appears within the Palantir>

Saruman: <telepathically> The power of Isengard is at your command, Sauron, Lord of the Earth.

Voice of Sauron: Build me an army worthy of Mordor!

<Saruman is sitting on a chair in one of his chambers, his arms wound about him. He looks haunted. Three orcs file into the room.>

Pink Eye (an orc): What orders from Mordor my Lord? What does the Eye command?

Saruman: We have work to do!"

3. I answer why I believe the Uruk Hai didn't head
straight to Mordor when having captured the two
hobbits.
The movie: Shows the white mark of Sarumann that the
Uruk Hai wear, shows the scene in Two Towers when
Sarumann and Grima Wormtongue witness the readied
Uruk Hai troops and it is a nod to the peak of Sarumann's
power, that they hail him, in his tower.
Amongst many things, this can be seen as the duality
of competing evils, Sauron in Barad-dur and Sarumann
in Orthanc.

#3 follows #2. There is no competition expressed or implied.
#s 4 and 5, I'll save for later (or for someone else).

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

This, too, is an inference. Just because they know who made doesn't mean they know how it works and with whom. Besides that, the inference is wrong (or at variance with the book if you prefer). The Ring most certainly could obey another master and that is why Sauron was afraid Aragorn was wielding it.

There is quite a difference in, and if I didn't make that clear I'll spell it out now, in a the-ring-obeys-the-one-who-wears-it and the magic of the ring that is forever bound to Sauron. This magic is, at its most basic, a force of surviving, which influences whoever uses the ring.
It is made clear that Isildur like Gollum like Bilbo like Frodo may use the ring, and be its master, the ring giving them invisibility whenever they put on the ring.
In that respect, and like Sauron fears Aragorn would get hold of the ring, there is a servitude inherent in the life of the ring. It is after all a ring. And so much is clear in the movie as well.
But, the ever-lasting obedience that the ring serves for Sauron is exclusive. He is it's maker, as the movie introduces, and no one else can claim to be completely in control of it. The first way the movie displays this is how the ring deceives its first master after Sauron, Isildur.. by slipping off his finger when he needed it the most. The ring is on a journey.. back to its owner, Sauron.
The only thing, (and here chance and the randomness of life, of which Sauron cannot be the master) that was not meant to happen was the ring falling into the hands of Bilbo. An unexpected turn in the ring's plans for an eventual reunification with its master.
Suma sumarum: The ring obeys whoever uses it. But at the same time it obeys Sauron. It tries to reach Sauron, but it cannot force the issue. But it tries, and it nearly succeeded at Weathertop, or in the Inn of the Prancing Pony, or amidst the ruins of Ossgiliath.. all scenes in the movie, all scenes meant to show how the ring tries and tries, but in the end fails its true master. It fails for many reasons, but there is one reason that stands out, which the movie, true to the book, shows in crystal clearness: The unpredictable ways of hobbits.

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

So he could wield it after all.

Read above answer. And no one is denying he could wield it.

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Not so. At all. The movie portrays Saruman as being under Sauron's control via the palantir, not working as an independent agent in rival of him.

I did not argue that Sarumann works independently of Sauron. At all.
Rather the case is twofold. Yes Sarumann offers an alliance, and his resources and forces at Orthanc to Sauron's disposal. He uses the Palantir to communicate with Sauron, and he has obviously fallen under the influence of Mordor.
But there is more to it than a mere master-slave relationship. And the evidence lies in the movie just like the book.
Sarumann chooses not to use Mordor orcs for his pillaging of Rohan and for getting the hobbits. He produces his own, Sarumann-branded army. In the movie we see the Uruk Hai exclaim then name Sarumann in obedience, not Sauron or Mordor. They refer to their master Sarumann. They wear the white mark of Sarumann. They are encouraged to kill off the Men of Rohan not as a gesture of obedience to the power in Mordor, but in servitude of... Sarumann.
They even show up in 10,000+ numbers in square formations at the doorsteps of Orthanc, shouting in honour of Sarumann, making war on his behalf.
So I think it's quite clear, and just like the passionate Tolkien-fan Peter Jackson is, that he wants to show a two-fold relationship (he even discusses this in a DVD documentary about the many meanings of the name Two Towers) in Sarumann-Sauron: The servitude of the wizard Sarumann to the evil Lord of Darkness Sauron, but also a lust for the ring, for the power and glory of the ring, of winning a war, in the actions of Sarumann.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

There is quite a difference in, and if I didn't make that clear I'll spell it out now, in a the-ring-obeys-the-one-who-wears-it and the magic of the ring that is forever bound to Sauron. This magic is, at its most basic, a force of surviving, which influences whoever uses the ring.
It is made clear that Isildur like Gollum like Bilbo like Frodo may use the ring, and be its master, the ring giving them invisibility whenever they put on the ring.
In that respect, and like Sauron fears Aragorn would get hold of the ring, there is a servitude inherent in the life of the ring. It is after all a ring. And so much is clear in the movie as well.

Which scene(s) show anyone at all mastering the use of The Ring? It makes people invisible whether they want to be or not; that's not mastery and it's not wielding The Ring. On the other hand, every time Frodo puts it on, he's cowed by Sauron and powerless to do anything. Again, that's neither mastery nor wielding of The Ring.

The movie does not show that anyone could wield The Ring. In fact, the opposite is shown.

But, the ever-lasting obedience that the ring serves for Sauron is exclusive. He is it's maker, as the movie introduces, and no one else can claim to be completely in control of it. The first way the movie displays this is how the ring deceives its first master after Sauron, Isildur.. by slipping off his finger when he needed it the most. The ring is on a journey.. back to its owner, Sauron.
The only thing, (and here chance and the randomness of life, of which Sauron cannot be the master) that was not meant to happen was the ring falling into the hands of Bilbo. An unexpected turn in the ring's plans for an eventual reunification with its master.

All true but there is no way for any of the characters to possibly know that. Yet, they act as if they do.

Suma sumarum: The ring obeys whoever uses it.

Not in the movie, it doesn't.

But at the same time it obeys Sauron. It tries to reach Sauron, but it cannot force the issue. But it tries, and it nearly succeeded at Weathertop, or in the Inn of the Prancing Pony, or amidst the ruins of Ossgiliath.. all scenes in the movie, all scenes meant to show how the ring tries and tries, but in the end fails its true master. It fails for many reasons, but there is one reason that stands out, which the movie, true to the book, shows in crystal clearness: The unpredictable ways of hobbits.

Yeah.

Read above answer. And no one is denying he could wield it.

"You cannot wield it! None of us can. The One Ring answers to Sauron alone. It has no other master." ~Aragorn

I did not argue that Sarumann works independently of Sauron. At all.
Rather the case is twofold. Yes Sarumann offers an alliance, and his resources and forces at Orthanc to Sauron's disposal. He uses the Palantir to communicate with Sauron, and he has obviously fallen under the influence of Mordor.
But there is more to it than a mere master-slave relationship. And the evidence lies in the movie just like the book.
Sarumann chooses not to use Mordor orcs for his pillaging of Rohan and for getting the hobbits. He produces his own, Sarumann-branded army. In the movie we see the Uruk Hai exclaim then name Sarumann in obedience, not Sauron or Mordor. They refer to their master Sarumann. They wear the white mark of Sarumann. They are encouraged to kill off the Men of Rohan not as a gesture of obedience to the power in Mordor, but in servitude of... Sarumann.
They even show up in 10,000+ numbers in square formations at the doorsteps of Orthanc, shouting in honour of Sarumann, making war on his behalf.
So I think it's quite clear, and just like the passionate Tolkien-fan Peter Jackson is, that he wants to show a two-fold relationship (he even discusses this in a DVD documentary about the many meanings of the name Two Towers) in Sarumann-Sauron: The servitude of the wizard Sarumann to the evil Lord of Darkness Sauron, but also a lust for the ring, for the power and glory of the ring, of winning a war, in the actions of Sarumann.

And the Morgul orcs wore their own symbol and answered to the Witch King. Was he a rebel against Sauron, too? You are still WAY over-exaggerating the meaning of what we saw in the film in order to make it coincide with the book.

I've had this argument way too many times.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Which scene(s) show anyone at all mastering the use of The Ring? It makes people invisible whether they want to be or not; that's not mastery and it's not wielding The Ring. On the other hand, every time Frodo puts it on, he's cowed by Sauron and powerless to do anything. Again, that's neither mastery nor wielding of The Ring.

No, no, unless you want to discuss semantics. We can talk about wielding a ring, as in using it, or we can talk about a "higher" definition, where wielding is to exert considerable influence.

1. to handle or use (a weapon or tool)
2. to exert or maintain (power or influence)

The ring does not make them invisible whether they want to or not. They choose to wear the ring when they want to. They use it to serve their means, just like Gollum was wielding the ring for so long, catching fish, eluding enemies and strangling goblins in the abyss of Moria.

The first person to get hold of the ring was Isildur and he meant to wield the ring as a means to become powerful. He felt a lust towards it. Though he did not get to spend much time with it..

Besides Isildur, only Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo are the owners of it at different times. By default this would exclude any intelligent mad-man wielding of power because none of these creatures crave such power.
But there are those who do.
Everyone from Gandalf to Galadriel to Boromir show in the movie want to use it (although with entirely different motives) to the purpose of wielding great power (in Boromir's case on behalf of his father). Sarumann too knows the power of the ring and craves such power. He sends his pack of Uruk Hai to obtain it, ordering it to be sent to him in Orthanc.

But let's not forget what we were discussing. No one denies that the type of wielding of the ring that Sauron exerts cannot be replicated by anyone else. Naturally.
We were however discussing the claim that PJ's movie shows that no one can USE it
It's quite obvious that no one can exert complete control over the ring, but there are those that are more prone to be successul than others (like Gandalf or Galadriel or Sarumann or even Aragorn)

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

All true but there is no way for any of the characters to possibly know that. Yet, they act as if they do..

You forget yourself All the users of the ring, including the Fellowship of the Ring, are presented to them why they really cannot claim to be in complete control of the ring. The most obvious example is the meeting in Rivendell when Gimli and Boromir and Legolas and Frodo and Sam and Gandalf and Elrond, etc physically witness the evil of the ring, how darkness engulfs the meeting when the words of Mordor engraved on the ring are uttered by Gandalf.

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

And the Morgul orcs wore their own symbol and answered to the Witch King. Was he a rebel against Sauron, too? You are still WAY over-exaggerating the meaning of what we saw in the film in order to make it coincide with the book.

The Morgul orcs displayed only the sort of military obedience that would be expected by the Witch-King, being the highest ranking commander on the fields of Pelennor. Goes without a saying

[Jon S.]

Denethor and Boromir certainly thought they could successfully wield the ring (good thing for everyone involved that they never got the chance). Just sayin'.

[Jon S.]

It crosses my mind, a couple of hours later, that perhaps this could serve as a useful partial analogy that most people can understand. Consider this rifle, the heaviest (weight-wise) in the US Marine Corp's diverse arsenal at the time:

Designation: M214
Weapon type: Heavy-duty squad automatic weapon/minigun
Ammunition: 5.56 x 45mm HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing)**
Overview: The M214 is the heaviest automatic assault weapon in the Marines’ arsenal. With six barrels and selectable rates of fire from 400 to 4,000 rounds per minute, the weapon easily destroys soft and lightly-armored targets. The HEAP ammunition is designed to penetrate its target before detonating, and is stored in a 1,000-round backpack worn by the operator. The M214 requires skill and strength to use properly, as its weight, bulk and exceptional recoil make it difficult to maneuver. Though it boasts the highest cyclic rate of all USCM infantry weapons, its rate of fire is reduced to approximately 1,200 rounds per minute when carried.6 A tripod mounting system restores its full capability, but limits the operator to a fixed position when in use.

Most of us could not "wield" this weapon. Oh, sure, some of us could pick it up and most of us could cause it to fire whether held or propped. However, we would not want to depend on the weapon in those circumstances as we would lack the sheer physical power and mental acumen to wield it effectively.

And before you start screaming, "The analogy is imperfect!," re-read my opening sentence carefully. The analogy is not that the M214 was specifically designed to match the physical and mental specs of just one user. It is that it takes a user with the appropriate physical and mental specs to properly wield it.

[Coffeehouse]

Well to those who have troubles understanding the whole wielding of the ring after this analogy then it probably never is going to happen (understanding it).

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

So now people who think Jackson did a crappy job portraying what Tolkien really intended in his book "have troubles understanding the whole wielding of the ring." Gotcha. It isn't an opinion, it's a mental deficiency. Thanks for the diagnosis.

[Jon S.]

That's not at all what was said or meant. Let's move on.