REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Ru: Considering the text he quoted, I think he was referring to Hitler; not sure about that.

You mean HectorB?

Anyhow, how do YOU know there isn't a "Stray Sheep" religion? I can certainly imagine that being the case.

Cuz I looked it up on the internet. Therefore, if it aint there, it aint anywhere.

Seriously though, I'm talking about accepted and widely known religions. So, let's try that again, shall we?

I mean, heck, there's even a Jedi religion!

yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyeeaaaaaaaahhhhh rrrrrrrrrrrriiiigggghhhht.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Valandil
Yes, Luther pretty much began the Protestant Reformation, although others tried unsuccessfully before him, and he didn't really aim for that - but got excommunicated and had little choice.

His movement was a real "back-to-the-basics-as-revealed-in-the-Bible" sort of thing. The Lutheran Church in Germany of the 1930's and 1940's was pretty far removed from that. It was state-supported, and therefore, subject to a certain amount of state control.

Interesting book written a few years ago by a man named Erwin Lutzer called, "Hitler's Cross". It details how Hitler intended to further transform the church in Germany - to bring it in line with his Aryan Supremacist doctrine. It would have basically ceased to be a Christian Church (unless in name only).

Hitler does not appear to have been a Christian by any stretch. But as Guillaume says, it would be presumptive of me to say that I know his eternal fate. I do not know it.

Thanks for the background and history.

So, basically, Hitler planned to rewrite the bible to justify murdering the Jews and other human beings? Sort of like one man rewriting other men's work. (sorry, a little Atheist jab in there )

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Thanks for the background and history.

So, basically, Hitler planned to rewrite the bible to justify murdering the Jews and other human beings? Sort of like one man rewriting other men's work. (sorry, a little Atheist jab in there )

More likely, just pitch the Bible. Hmmm... some churches have practically done that these days anyway.

('jab' totally disregarded! )

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Valandil
More likely, just pitch the Bible. Hmmm... some churches have practically done that these days anyway.

('jab' totally disregarded! )

Which christian churches have done away with the bible?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Which christian churches have done away with the bible?

Well, I did say 'practically'... some churches these days seem to give it much less emphasis.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

the bible to justify murdering the Jews and other human beings? Sort of like one man rewriting other men's work. (sorry

Why do I doubt that?

Does the sun shine? Is the sky blue? Do cows fly?

Yes, yes, and yes.

yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyeeaaaaaaaahhhhh rrrrrrrrrrrriiiigggghhhht.

Click here, then go to Jedi.

He said change it to where it wouldn't be A Christian church anymore; I think that would constitute more than jusitification of genocide.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Valandil
Well, I did say 'practically'... some churches these days seem to give it much less emphasis.

Which ones? (I'm just asking because I don't know.)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Why do I doubt that?

What do you doubt? That he was trying to rewrite other men's work? or that I'm sorry for giving the little jab?

Click here, then go to Jedi.

BWHAHAHAAA!!!! eerr... ehem... *gets control of self*

He said change it to where it wouldn't be A Christian church anymore; I think that would constitute more than jusitification of genocide.

What else was he planning to put in his own version of the bible?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I doubt you were really, truly sorry; if you'd said that to be cruel, I'd believe it, but it was just a jab.

See, I told ya!

Did you miss the quote from Mr Hilter (Monty Python, anyone): "without the Pope or the bible". That indicates he didn't plan to change the Bible, but cut it out.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
..Did you miss the quote from Mr Hilter (Monty Python, anyone): "without the Pope or the bible". That indicates he didn't plan to change the Bible, but cut it out.

Do you have a link or something to put up that would indicate what exactly he was planning to give everyone as his own version?

And, really, it was just as much a jab as we Atheists have been getting from you people.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

No, I don't; that quote was actually from a page about Martin Luther. But if you take away the Pope and the Bible, then what is left is flat out not Christianity.

Eh? What jabs? The worst I remember is an expression of not knowing why Atheists are moral; you flat out said that Christians are amoral. :P

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
No, I don't; that quote was actually from a page about Martin Luther. But if you take away the Pope and the Bible, then what is left is flat out not Christianity.

Eh? What jabs? The worst I remember is an expression of not knowing why Atheists are moral; you flat out said that Christians are amoral. :P

I don't know. Christianity is based on the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles, what was written in the New Testament, which was has a basis in Judeism. Since we don't know what was to be written in "Hitler's bible" the I guess we can't compare. Who knows if it was to resemble Christianity at all. I'm guessing from what you said before, that he would probably leave in the parts he wanted, and twist or flat out rewrite the parts that didn't support him. But then, like I said, it's just a guess.

Come now... I never said Christians were amoral. Christians can be just as moral as Atheists, IMO. I was talking about the jabs like: Atheists are moral because god created them that way. (which I ignored, btw).

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Which christian churches have done away with the bible?

From my personal experience - with one of our ministers in the Methodist church, it was really a toss-up any particular week whether he'd preach out of the Bible or some other book.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I was talking about the jabs like: Atheists are moral because god created them that way. (which I ignored, btw).

That was not meant to be a jab. It IS my opinion of why atheists are moral If there IS a God and He is as outlined in the Bible, then the mere fact of a particular person's not believing in Him doesn't somehow negate God or what He has done - i.e., create people and instill His morality into their hearts.

Why did you ignore it, BTW?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Ru: I didn't see any indication that Hitler planned to have any Bible whatsoever; did I miss something?

I'm guessing from what you said before, that he would probably leave in the parts he wanted, and twist or flat out rewrite the parts that didn't support him.

Yeah, that's the world's most popular religion right there!

Very well, then, immoral. Or at least tending towards immorality. Though, IMO, saying that moral Atheists are moral because God made them that way is not such a "jab" as saying moral religious folk are moral because they're scared (on a completely unrelated note, why do "scared" and "sacred" look so much alike? )

Rian: Another church I would add is the Anglican Church, or at least the most well-known branch thereof.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Which ones? (I'm just asking because I don't know.)

I hesitate to 'name names' on this one... there could be much variation between different local congregations. One can generally tell when present.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Ru: I didn't see any indication that Hitler planned to have any Bible whatsoever; did I miss something?

oh, sorry. Maybe I misunderstood. I thought he was writing his own version or something.

Very well, then, immoral. Or at least tending towards immorality. Though, IMO, saying that moral Atheists are moral because God made them that way is not such a "jab" as saying moral religious folk are moral because they're scared (on a completely unrelated note, why do "scared" and "sacred" look so much alike? )

It goes against what I believe to be true just like what I said went against what you believe as well. Wanna call a truce?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Valandil
I hesitate to 'name names' on this one... there could be much variation between different local congregations. One can generally tell when present.

Well, that's kinda what this thread is about. Laying out the misconceptions and getting it all right. You may have the wrong idea about some Christian religions and perhaps someone here can clarify it for you. Or you may be right on the money. But we won't know that till it comes out.

Example, Brill had a terrible misconception about Catholicism. Several people here were able to explain Catholicism and Brill now has a better understanding of what that faith is all about (at least I hope she does).

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
That was not meant to be a jab. It IS my opinion of why atheists are moral If there IS a God and He is as outlined in the Bible, then the mere fact of a particular person's not believing in Him doesn't somehow negate God or what He has done - i.e., create people and instill His morality into their hearts.

Why did you ignore it, BTW?

I ignored it because sometimes people say things that don't deserve a response.

Does it bother you to read when people post that you are wrong, that your god did not make you moral, but your morality is learned through your contact with others in your society?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Though, IMO, saying that moral Atheists are moral because God made them that way is not such a "jab" as saying moral religious folk are moral because they're scared ...

No kidding! And "brainless" is another popular jab (or at least "non-thinking") that I have seen here. MY comment was NOT a reflection on the character of the atheist, while those comments ARE a reflection on the character of the Christian.