Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Check the original "What's your religion" thread. If I remember, there were quite a few Wiccans. I think BoP was one.

Gah, no she wasn't. Atheist, if you please.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Ah, sorry. I thought I saw you say you were a Wiccan on the religion thread. Beg your pardon.

[MasterMothra]

could you define what the "lamb of god" is? its been a while since i picked up my king james 1611 bible. what i remember about revelations is that john must have been "high" when he dreamed up all those passages. if someone today told us what john wrote down back then, they would immediately be sent to the funny farm. it is quite entertaining though.

what exactly is it that god is trying to accomplish with the battle of armageddon?

[Wayfarer]

All of this Logic does not really apply to the supernatural, in my opinion.

I would like to speak up on this issue, since I'm very leery of statements like these.


I woul like to know why, exactly, you think that god is outside the bounds of logic? My understanding has always been quite the opposite, that God is in fact Hyper-Logical.

I'm going to have to side with Anduril on this one-nonsense does not cease to be nonsense simply because you ascribe it to God. The issue has never been whether or not a logically impossible situation can be true, but whether the given situation is in fact logically impossible.

could you define what the "lamb of god" is?

Christ. However, I question how someone who claims to have been a

practicing christian

could be so completely clueless about something so simple.

what exactly is it that god is trying to accomplish with the battle of armageddon?

Again I ask: if you were a christian at one time, shouldn't you know this? It is clearly (if fancifully) stated that the battle of armageddon is instigated by the Antichrist(ians).

I am sorry if I seem harsh, but the only thing that angers me more than people who claim to be christians without any evidence that they know what they're talking about, is people who claim they once were christians and STILL have no idea what they're talking about.
It has always been my understanding that a rational judgement must be preceded by understanding. Would someone tell me if I'm wrong?

[MasterMothra]

well, not all of us are as intelligent as you mr wayfarer. sometimes to couple logic with reason it is best to ask the simple questions that are so differently interpreted. back to basics in short.

for your information, i was a practicing christian, whether you believe it or not is immaterial. i was simply making a statement in reply to the original question this topic posed.

about armageddon. if god is truely all powerful, then why does he need a "final" battle to cast satan down? that is a ridiculous notion in my opinion. i used to believe in god and trust his hand to deliver me, but the more i read the word of god(or as christians refer to it, the bible) the more i realised that it gave no answers. if you would like me to post a few contridiction in the bible i would be glad to, but i dont think you will. blind faith in a fairy tale has that effect on people.

i would like to venture out on a limb and say that religeon(christianity to be more specific) has done more harm than good in this world. the number of those oppressed and murdered in the name of god are staggaring and sickening to say the least. im surprised that a reasonable person such as yourself would become a part of such a grand history as that provided by christianity. it is amusing.

[Coney]

To the Wiccans replying to this thread.......if you think that Wicca is an old religion your wrong. View here.....Witchcraft is the closest old religion you'll find that correlates to Wicca.

To Wayfarer: If God is Hyper-Logical then would you please do me the courtesy of answering the questions I asked earlier in this thread?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

What Anduril said struck me more as that God IS nonsense, an impossibility. Lewis said that nonsense does not cease to be nonsense when it is ascribed to God.

By this, I meant that one cannot prove or disprove God with logic, as a Being such as God would be, in my opinion, beyond the understanding of Man in most respect. I.E. Man cannot truly understand the workings of omnipotence, as it is something that Mankind does not, has not, and will not experience.

Of course, if I am wrong, feel free to say so.

MM: See above concerning contradictions in the Bible. Whether Christianity has done more harm than good depends on whether or not you think it is true. Also, things like the Crusades, politics of the Middle Age Church etc are NOT Christian. They were people using the name of God to do such things. That does NOT mean that God really said to do it.

Also, need I remind you that the majority of modern-day terrorists (or at least a good deal of them) are Muslim? If I am correct, historically Mohammed was a conquerer who fought in ways similar to the Crusaders; i.e. "Slay the Infidels".

This is NOT intended to say that Muslims are evil, Muslims are murderers, etc. The great majority of Muslims are NOT, in any way, terrorists; those are extremists. The vast majority of Christians are not paranoid morons who think that the Lord of the Rings is Satanic; those are extremists. I am NOT judging the people who follow this religion on the actions of a few.

[Coney]

What Anduril said struck me more as that God IS nonsense, an impossibility.

I'm just picking this quote from your thread Gwaimir

IMO opinion God is not logical......neither is any religion .

Anduril is asking, or protesting, that religion shouldbe logical and I'm merely asking why........Gods should not/need not be logical.......it is faith.

But *braces for the backlash, which is both welcome and appreciated*........The Bible (which is the Word Of God) is not logical....in fact it is a contradiction unto itself*...

*see my previous posts

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I definitely agree with you on that; I have always believed that when it comes down to it, it takes faith to believe anything: Christianity, Wicca, Judaism, Islam, Evolution, Buddhism, and all that other stuff.

[Wayfarer]

well, not all of us are as intelligent as you mr wayfarer. sometimes to couple logic with reason it is best to ask the simple questions that are so differently interpreted. back to basics in short.

Mothra (how is Godzilla, by the way? ), did I give you any reason to think that I thought that I was smarter than you? If so, I'm quite sorry.

What simple questions do you think need to be asked, and haven't?

for your information, i was a practicing christian, whether you believe it or not is immaterial.

You're right. Whether I believe you IS immaterial. After all, my judgement is subjective and fallible. But the when you demonstrate a lack of knowledge what christianity is, your claims to have been a christian at one time are obviously suspect. Is that reasonable?

Christ himself said (not directed at you):

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (matt 7:22-23)

Now tell me-do you get the impression that he's talking to people who thought they were christians, but aren't? And if these folks, who spend their entire lives doing what they thought were christian things, didn't meet the criteria, what grounds to you have for claiming that you do (or did)? I'm genuinely curious.

about armageddon. if god is truely all powerful, then why does he need a "final" battle to cast satan down? that is a ridiculous notion in my opinion.

Erm... He doesn't?
I wonder if you did not hear me the first time. The battle of armageddon is going to be started by god, or by his people. It is going to be started by satan and his followers.

They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. (-Rev 20:9)

Two points: A, God merely defends his people and B) it really isn't much of a battle, is it?

if you would like me to post a few contridiction in the bible i would be glad to, but i dont think you will.

By all means, do so. I will likely feel the need to correct your logic or your facts, but I hope you will understand that I have no intention of attacking you personally. I do not now and never will reject your arguments without a thorough examination.

i would like to venture out on a limb and say that religeon(christianity to be more specific) has done more harm than good in this world.

I would like to venture out on a limb and venture that psuedo christians (who claim to be christians, but aren't) responsible for any instance you could name.

im surprised that a reasonable person such as yourself would become a part of such a grand history as that provided by christianity

This is a completely illogical character attack. What some people claiming to be christians have done has no bearing whatsoever on whether christianity is true, any more than what some people calling themselves athiests have done has bearing on whether athiesm is true.

As to your surprise that rational people can believe in christianity. Why should we not? I have examined christianity with a fine toothed comb, and I have yet to find anything that my reason cannot accept. Athiesm, on the other hand...

[katya]

Originally posted by Wayfarer

As to your surprise that rational people can believe in christianity. Why should we not? I have examined christianity with a fine toothed comb, and I have yet to find anything that my reason cannot accept. Athiesm, on the other hand... [/B]

Wayfarer, I just had to say that I am glad you say that. I kind of feel the same way. I could not have accepted aynthing I didn't emaine with a fine toothed comb. I am glad to see that not all others who believe are blindly accepting something. You get to be my hero for the day.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I definitely agree with you on that; I have always believed that when it comes down to it, it takes faith to believe anything: Christianity, Wicca, Judaism, Islam, Evolution, Buddhism, and all that other stuff.

Faith, in any shape or form is a beautiful thing....it is your only real decision..unless you desire oblivon *shrugs*.....I've seen too many friends (and loved ones) pop thieir clogs to accept that.......*shrugs*.......If God denies me seeing those I love......*nasty smile*........then HE will either learn compasssion or HE will knows the fear of St Peter

[Wayfarer]

What Anduril said struck me more as that God IS nonsense, an impossibility. Lewis said that nonsense does not cease to be nonsense when it is ascribed to God.

Anduril believes that some/most attributes which are ascribed to God are logically incompatable, and therefore, false. I disagree. However, he and I share the view that if something IS logically impossible, then it's not true.

Anduril is asking, or protesting, that religion shouldbe logical and I'm merely asking why........Gods should not/need not be logical.......it is faith.

Coney, you seem to have a poor grasp of what's involved here.

Having faith does not require the absence of logic, nor does logic refute the nescessity of faith. As I have said before, my faith is built on my logic, and is in direct opposition to what I my evil left hindbrain would like.

Cony, I have reviewed every single post of yours in this thread, and you have not, in fact, made even a token effort to show that god or the bible is illogical. What exactly are you referring to?

Cony... is there some reason you cannot understand the compassion God has already shown you? Heaven is yours for the asking, friend. Why do you refuse to ask?

[Elfhelm]

Before I get shouted down, let me make it clear that I am not speaking on behalf of anyone here. This is my opinion.

I don't think modern Christianity is what Jesus wanted. I think that religions are too caught up in maintaining their existence to take Jesus into consideration when they set their policies. When I read the Bible, I don't see this stoicism that is so essential to those who "practice" Christianity. Like the refusal to drink wine. Jesus changed water into wine it says, but the modern Christian is not supposed to drink. And he didn't say not to smoke tobacco, but that's bad, too, and of course you'll go to Hell if you smoke pot. Where in the Bible does it say that is bad? All these rules and regulations they say Jesus wanted aren't in the Bible. Like polygamy. Man the Bible is full of polygamy, but somehow that's a sin.

I'm sure someone will be glad to set me straight.

But it seems to me that it's OK to enjoy life and the Stoicism was added when certain Greek cultists joined up in the second century AD.

Here's another thing I never got. If Jesus wanted to create a religion, why did he sit out on the steps and preach to people who were entering? Why did he go in and turn over all those money changing tables? I think he looked at the politicization of the teachings of the prophets, all the greed and avarice, and realized he could never stop people from the lunacy called organized religion, so he said, I could tear this place down and it would be rebuilt in three days.

I don't get the idea of worshipping a sacrificial victim, either. It seems so barbaric. And then eating his body and drinking his blood. Somehow TO MY MIND the philosophy of quiet contemplation does a much better job of bringing me closer to God.

Now someone will be glad to tell you all why I am wrong, but remember, I speak only for myself.

[katya]

Elfhelm, I agree with you on some points there. As far as organized religion, I don't know if anyone has ever considered this but I like Quakerism. If there were an option in life to create sort of a customized religion, for me it would be Quakerism. I am a Catholic though. I like the mass alright. Except that it's at 8:30 in the morning. How in the world am I supposed to pay attention when I am not even awake till about noon most days?... Quiet comtemplation is a main point of being a Quaker though anyway. Silence is one of teh main...umn...oh dude what are they called?...well anyway one of the main parts. Quiet comtemplation works best for me too. Especially outside in nature.

[Coney]

[edited]

[Elfhelm]

Yeah, Quakers, or Friends, make sense to me. The Bible says not to live by the sword, so they don't. And I know they don't drink because of compassion for the American Indians. Alchohol was being used to subjugate these poor people so they all swore off it. And they don't wear colored clothing because the slaves who dyed the cloth were dying from poison, and the helped with the underground railroad, and worked against the vietnam war. I have always respected them because they seem to actually practice what they preach. You realize that you can probably find a local Quaker group by searching the internet, right?

[Coney]

[edited]

[Wayfarer]

That stuff is bad, elfhelm! The bible says so. See! Right here! *stabs finger at page* First Timothy 4:3!

"Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving"

So there! Hah! Set you straight, didn't I?

Here's another thing I never got. If Jesus wanted to create a religion *nip*

Who ever said Jesus wanted to create a religion? I seem to recall that

"the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost." (luke 19:10)

Jesus didn't come to bring a new moral code, and His teachings are still substantially in agreement with any other 'great moral teacher'. He didn't come to bring a new religion, christians still worship the God of Abraham, et al. Becuase ultimately, even the most moral and religious human isn't good enough. He came to bring salvation.

I don't get the idea of worshipping a sacrificial victim, either. It seems so barbaric. And then eating his body and drinking his blood.

The way in which he was sacrificed was barbaric. The fact that he willingly chose death so that you and I could have eternal life isn't.

As for the body and blood part, it's obviously meant to be taken metaphorically. At least I think so. I don't recall the discibles throwing themselves at him to chew on his ankles.

Not my call.Wayarer

Why don't you think it's your call?

Not my call.Wayarer
The only person I've ever really loved - dead......majority of my friends dead, Your God is not a just God .*shrugs*

How is he unjust? The fact that people die hardly seems like good evidence.
Life is hard. But everlasting joy is available to anyone who wants it it's still your choice.

[Millane]

The way in which he was sacrificed was barbaric. The fact that he willingly chose death so that you and I could have eternal life isn't.

can somebody pleeeeeease explain how jesus dieing somehow saved mankind... i have asked this many times and i never get a straight answer
i am no bible scholar but there seems to be plenty here so at least one of you should be able to answer this..