Favorite Elf-King?

[Maedhros]

If you examine Turgon's rôle in ME, he is the perfect example of someone who only acted when it was convinient for him to do so.

From the Published Silmarillion

The field was lost; but still Húrin and Huor and the remnant of the house of Hador stood firm with Turgon of Gondolin, and the hosts of Morgoth could not yet win the Pass of Sirion. Then Húrin spoke to Turgon, saying: 'Go now, lord, while time is! For in you lives the last hope of the Eldar, and while Gondolin stands Morgoth shall still know fear in his heart.'
But Turgon answered: 'Not long now can Gondolin be hidden; and being discovered it must fall.'
Then Huor spoke and said: 'Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and from me a new star shall arise. Farewell!'

but then we have ........
From the Wanderings of Húrin

Then Húrin looked up to the grey sky, thinking that by fortune he might once more descry the Eagles, as he had done long ago in his youth. But he saw only the shadows blown from the East, and clouds swirling about the inaccessible peaks;
and wind hissed over the stones. But the watch of the Great Eagles was now redoubled, and they marked Húrin well, far below, forlorn in the failing light. And straightaway Sorontar himself, since the tidings seemed great, brought word to Turgon.
But Turgon said: 'Nay! This is past belief! Unless Morgoth sleeps. Ye were mistaken.'
'Nay, not so,' answered Sorontar. 'If the Eagles of Manwë were wont to err thus, Lord, your hiding would have been in vain.'
'Then your words bode ill,' said Turgon; 'for they can mean only that even Húrin Thalion hath surrendered to the will of Morgoth. My heart is shut.' But when he had dismissed Sorontar, Turgon sat long in thought, and he was troubled, remembering the deeds of Húrin. And he opened his heart, and he sent to the Eagles to seek for Húrin, and to bring him, if they could, to Gondolin. But it was too late, and they saw him never again in light or in shadow.

Now this is convenient.

[Maedhros]

From The War of the Jewels: Wanderings of Húrin

For Húrin stood at last in despair before the stem silence of the Echoriad, and the westering sun, piercing the clouds, stained his white hair with red. Then he cried aloud in the wilderness, heedless of any ears, and he cursed the pitiless land: 'hard as the hearts of Elves and Men'. And he stood at last upon a great stone, and spreading wide his arms, looking towards Gondolin, he called in a great voice: 'Turgon, Turgon! Remember the Fen of Serech!' And again: 'Turgon! Húrin calls you. O Turgon, will you not hear in your hidden halls?'

No, Turgon will not hear you, Húrin Thalion, even though you saved him in the Nirnaeth.

[brownjenkins]

turgon was acting in the best interest of his people, which can be cruel at times, and as his remorse shows, it was not something that he enjoyed doing... this is the sign of a good leader

on finrod... he was a victim of some tough circumstances, but leaving your people, for whatever reason, especially in times of turmoil is never a good thing... maybe he should have done some more considering before letting celegorm and curufin's people in in the first place (i doubt that turgon would have let them waltz in if they had come to his door... or at least he would have instituted some strong safeguards to keep their power in check)... finrod was much too trusting

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
turgon was acting in the best interest of his people, which can be cruel at times, and as his remorse shows, it was not something that he enjoyed doing... this is the sign of a good leader

on finrod... he was a victim of some tough circumstances, but leaving your people, for whatever reason, especially in times of turmoil is never a good thing... maybe he should have done some more considering before letting celegorm and curufin's people in in the first place (i doubt that turgon would have let them waltz in if they had come to his door... or at least he would have instituted some strong safeguards to keep their power in check)... finrod was much too trusting

Turgon vitually turned his back on his people, (the Noldor) after the Nrrnaeth. Also, his defiance toward the messengers of Ulmo at the end was a foolish choice that was not beneficial to the people of Gondolin.

I don't think Finrod was too trusting. I do think he was kind though. You must remember also, that Finrod's policy of secrecy was not the same as Turgon's. Although Nargothrond was hidden, or at least the underground fortress, the realm itself extended far and wide. The largest realm in all of Beleriand. Finrod accepted Celegorm and Curufin and their people in his kingdom as his kin. He was friendly with Maglor and Maedhros aswell. Up to the point of him revealing the quest of the Silmaril, he had no reason to not accept them, or to bannish them. He tells Beren that they showed friendship to him in every need. I am sure that Finrod, though kind, was not off his guard with them, but up to that point, he had no reason to take any action against them.

[brownjenkins]

fair enough, i didn't mean to imply that turgon was better, he just had different shortcomings from a leadership point of view... i think all the elves that came to beleriand can be faulted as having too much pride, but the topic is "favorite" elf-king and not "best" (and as i posted earlier, finrod is one of my favorites too )... though if i was to choose the best, i'd probably go with finarfin... since he was the only one wise enough to say no to fëanor in the beginning

[Sister Golden Hair]

i think all the elves that came to beleriand can be faulted as having too much pride

Not Finrod.

[Falagar]

Turgon vitually turned his back on his people, (the Noldor) after the Nrrnaeth. Also, his defiance toward the messengers of Ulmo at the end was a foolish choice that was not beneficial to the people of Gondolin.

Can you blame him? What could he have done to help the Noldor? If he sent out people to aid the rest, chanses were that they would never return and probably give Morgoth his hiding-place (and thus the last hope be destroyed).
He could try open war, and be crushed. He could try a guerrillia (sp?) war, with the same result.

Finrod also 'abandoned' the Noldor, and did less than Turgon to aid them (if I remember correctly, a while ago since I read the SIlm.).

[Sister Golden Hair]

Finrod also 'abandoned' the Noldor, and did less than Turgon to aid them (if I remember correctly, a while ago since I read the SIlm.).

Well, since you brought it up, how about some examples?

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, since you brought it up, how about some examples?

If I remember correctly (as I said previously, a while since I read the Silm! ) Finrod also 'hid' in Nargothrond, and he didn't even come to the Arnoediad.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Falagar
If I remember correctly (as I said previously, a while since I read the Silm! ) Finrod also 'hid' in Nargothrond, and he didn't even come to the Arnoediad.

Give me a break. Finrod fought bravely in the wars of Beleriand. He was dead at the time of the Arnoediad, and Orodreth sent a small party. He did not hide in Nargothrond, but built an underground fortress and palace of defence as he was instructed to do so by Ulmo.

[Falagar]

*smacks head with frying pan*

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Falagar
*smacks head with frying pan*

Would you like to borrow my big stick?

[brownjenkins]

SGH
Not Finrod.

as i said before, i think all the elves who heard the words of mandos and decided to continue on can be faulted as having too much pride... i think finrod was certainly the most likeable elf-king, but he was far from perfect

[Maedhros]

turgon was acting in the best interest of his people, which can be cruel at times, and as his remorse shows, it was not something that he enjoyed doing... this is the sign of a good leader

The best interest of his people?
From The Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin

Then the lord of the house of the Mole played upon the one weakness of Turgon, saying:" Lo! O King, the city of Gondolin contains a wealth of jewels and metals and stuffs and of things wrought by the hands of the Gnomes to surpassing beauty, and all these thy lords -- more brave meseems than wise -- would abandon to the Foe. Even should victory be thine upon the plain thy city will be sacked and the Balrogs get hence with a measureless booty"; and Turgon groaned, for Meglin had known his great love for the wealth and loveliness of that burg upon Amon Gwareth.

Yes, for the best interest of his people.

[brownjenkins]

if we're going to bring lost tales into the picture a lot of characters and motivations would be changed

are you suggesting that turgon should have let húrin in after he was released by melkor?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
if we're going to bring lost tales into the picture a lot of characters and motivations would be changed

But it belongs in the picture, the Fall of Gondolin in the Lost Tales is the only account that we have.

are you suggesting that turgon should have let húrin in after he was released by melkor?

I think Turgon had to make a very diffucult decision there. IMO it was sensible of him to be suspicious, it wasn't so unlikely that Húrin should have been enthralled by Morgoth. Turgon was after all responsible for the safety of his people. And he did reach the right conclusion in the end, but unfortunately it was too late.

Turgon's Fault with capital F was not to heed Ulmo's advice. But he repented and defended his city and his people valiantly, paying his debt. I think people who err, but still want to do the right thing and struggle with themselves to achieve it, are loveable and far more interesting than those who always seem to do everything right. Perfect people are booooring.

[Falagar]

Turgon did a good job protecting his people, until the end. And I think he did it not only because of the beauty of his city, but also because he feared for the life of his people (if Morgoth discovered them they wouldn't stand a chanse).

[Maedhros]

if we're going to bring lost tales into the picture a lot of characters and motivations would be changed

There are tales and there are Tales. Please tell me of a latter account of the Fall of Gondolin that is not in the Book of Lost Tales II. Something that makes it outdated, please.
As Artanis was posted, there is none.

are you suggesting that turgon should have let húrin in after he was released by melkor?

ibid.
But Turgon said: "Evil have I brought upon the Flower of the Plain in despite of Ulmo, and now he leaveth it to wither in the fire. Lo! hope is no more in my heart for my city of loveliness, but the children of the Noldoli shall not be worsted for ever."

Wasn't it because of the deeds of Húrin and Huor and their men that Turgon was able to return to Gondolin. Would it be correct to say that if it weren't for Thalion the Steadfast that there would be no Gondolin to talk about? Can you imagine if Morgoth captured a Gondolindrim an obtained the information about Gondolin?
What was Húrin's reward for saving Gondolin?
From Wanderings of Húrin

When Húrin stood again in the high places he descried far away amid the clouds the peaks of the Crisaegrim, and he remembered Turgon; and his heart desired to come again to the Hidden Realm, if he could, for there at least he would be remembered with honour. He had heard naught of the things that had come to pass in Gondolin, and knew not that Turgon now hardened his heart against wisdom and pity, and allowed no one either to enter or to go forth for any cause whatsoever.

But when it was convenient for Turgon he did listen to Húrin:

Published Silmarillion
Then Húrin spoke to Turgon, saying: 'Go now, lord, while time is! For in you lives the last hope of the Eldar, and while Gondolin stands Morgoth shall still know fear in his heart.'

And what about the torment that Húrin suffered in Angband? Why is it that Turgon's excuse is that bringing Húrin to Gondolin would have given him the location of the city, but what about all of the time that Húrin spend in Angband with his torment, and he didn't yield?
Now Turgon was very ungrateful. He's my favorite ungrateful ñoldorian king.

[Falagar]

But what if the spies of Morgoth had seen the Eagles bring Húrin to Gondolin (as they surely would have done, since they followed him)?

[Maedhros]

But what if the spies of Morgoth had seen the Eagles bring Húrin to Gondolin (as they surely would have done, since they followed him)?

Of course that would have happened.
But what if Húrin had told Morgoth what he knew about Gondolin a loooooooooong time ago?