The Singers Thread

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Tessar

I just don't know what to believe. On the one hand I have the one guy telling me that I have a great voice, I use it really well for a Junior, and that I've got tons of potential. On the other hand I have my new voice teacher... She thinks I have decent stage presence for someone at my level, and that I'm well ahead of the curve as far as technical vocal knowledge goes, but I think she agrees with me in feeling that vocally I'm as much as a year behind.

She may also agree with the other guy that you've got tons of potential

[Tessar]

I got to hear a REALLY high quality recording of myself singing in 'big' seminar yesterday.

It sounded pretty icky, BUT... I am not in good voice -at all- right now, and the technique was actually good overall in my opinion. The only thing that made it sound blech was that I totally forgot to keep my palate up, so it was dropped the entire time.

That made my voice lack color, spin, and 'loft' of the tone... nothing was actually flat persay, but I was constantly hugging the underside of the pitch. BUT, it was not as bad as I thought it was, and I did manage to float the D4 instead of 'grabbing' it with my throat like I tend to do.

So the recording is crap, but strangely enough I think it's actually a step in the right direction. There was a hint of a nice 'shimmer' in the tone, but because the palate was down it was just a hint instead of the 'real deal'.

I'm not pleased with that performance, but I'm very happy with the technical progress that has been made . My teacher thinks it sounded 'pretty good', but I disagree. We both agree about the technical progress though, and she agreed that if I had managed to get my palate up it actually would've been a decent recording despite my vocal tiredness.

[Voronwen]

Steps in the right direction are always a good thing

Are you still suffering from vocal fatigue from when you mentioned it before? Or is this a new bout with it? Is it something technical that's causing this, or just the present workload's demand on those cords?

How is the new 'tiny sound' sensation coming along? Are you finding that this helps? It should be allowing you to experience less fatigue. Also your technique may be going through an adjustment period because you are no longer "overblowing".

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

Are you still suffering from vocal fatigue from when you mentioned it before? Or is this a new bout with it? Is it something technical that's causing this, or just the present workload's demand on those cords?

A little of everything. I got to recover a bit on those few rest days, but not all the way because my allergies started acting up. We've had lots of rain for the last three weeks... not even full out rain, but lots of damp mugginess and a few cold fronts. I'm so grateful for the rain and colder weather, but I have a fair bit of drainage which isn't helping.

Then there's also just tons of singing. In fact I was supposed to sing in the octet at a wedding tomorrow, and then the three Sunday services and an extra thing on Sunday... but I just e-mailed the director to say that my voice is totally gone. Which is an exaggeration, but if I tried to sing at those things I'm very much afraid I actually will totally lose my voice. I am trying to be more intelligent about using my voice. I feel really guilty about skipping out on those things, but I think I have to.

Rehearsals, practicing (which I haven't been able to at all lately), sight singing, pirates rehearsals, voice lessons, school choir, church choir, singing in seminar... it's too much for my current technical level.


The 'small' sensation is coming along fantastic! I'm happy with the direction it's headed in, and I'm sure that once I get my voice back 100% (or heck, even 70%) I'll be able to make more progress with it. One good thing about the recording, despite my lack of 'ring', is that my voice still carried very nicely on that small sound. It was thin, due to vocal problems, but it wasn't a 'wimpy' thin, just a tired thin .


One thing my teacher and I had a brief discussion about is that she wants to basically go in and get at the root of my vocal problems, which I think is great. Hence the sort of 'starting over' approach of keeping everything very small for a while. She thinks that in a few months I'll be able to open it up much more. I'm hoping for sooner, but I'm not going to push it .

I almost laughed at a guy the other day, though. He's one of the ones who likes to critique other people's voices... so he came up to me and was talking about how I had sung well at seminar, which was very kind of him.

Then he ruined it all by saying, "Now I kind of get your voice better. You need to sing lots more German Lieder." Then he proceeded to try to tell me that when I'm more advanced there are several cycles I should try to sing. I didn't take him seriously at all... for starters, this guy has the vibrato of a bellowing billygoat. Secondly that statement about 'now I "get" your voice' was just ridiculous... It makes me imagine him sitting at home scratching his head and saying, "I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND HIS VOICE AT ALL!"

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

A little of everything. I got to recover a bit on those few rest days, but not all the way because my allergies started acting up. We've had lots of rain for the last three weeks... not even full out rain, but lots of damp mugginess and a few cold fronts. I'm so grateful for the rain and colder weather, but I have a fair bit of drainage which isn't helping.

I totally understand the allergy thing And of course, we can't take antihistamines or anything of the sort for it, because they dry out the cords (which could be dangerous to sing on). Good for you for soldiering on through it, though!

Then there's also just tons of singing.

I am trying to be more intelligent about using my voice. I feel really guilty about skipping out on those things, but I think I have to.

Sometimes, we just do. There's something to be said for the saying, "Work smarter, not harder". It sounds like that's about where you're coming to.

The 'small' sensation is coming along fantastic! I'm happy with the direction it's headed in, and I'm sure that once I get my voice back 100% (or heck, even 70%) I'll be able to make more progress with it.

Wonderful!!!

One good thing about the recording, despite my lack of 'ring', is that my voice still carried very nicely on that small sound. It was thin, due to vocal problems, but it wasn't a 'wimpy' thin, just a tired thin.

That "lack of ring" is all about fatigue

One thing my teacher and I had a brief discussion about is that she wants to basically go in and get at the root of my vocal problems, which I think is great. Hence the sort of 'starting over' approach of keeping everything very small for a while. She thinks that in a few months I'll be able to open it up much more. I'm hoping for sooner, but I'm not going to push it.

Yes, this is smart. It'll happen in time, and as long as you stick with a healthy technique (no overblowing!), and it'll happen in the way that is natural for your own voice. Keep in mind that a voice can never be 'bigger' than it is and that as your technique grows, the true nature of your voice will come out more and more, and you will need to be sensitive and kind to it and let it just be who it is.

I almost laughed at a guy the other day, though. He's one of the ones who likes to critique other people's voices... so he came up to me and was talking about how I had sung well at seminar, which was very kind of him.

Then he ruined it all by saying, "Now I kind of get your voice better. You need to sing lots more German Lieder." Then he proceeded to try to tell me that when I'm more advanced there are several cycles I should try to sing. I didn't take him seriously at all... for starters, this guy has the vibrato of a bellowing billygoat. Secondly that statement about 'now I "get" your voice' was just ridiculous... It makes me imagine him sitting at home scratching his head and saying, "I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND HIS VOICE AT ALL!"

Hmm, well i definitely wouldnt rely on this guy about technique! It sounds like he has major technical issues of his own (which, btw, sounds like the fruit of years upon years of that horrid overblowing - keep that in mind! ). So yeah, take most of what he says with a grain of salt. But about repertoire....

..He may actually be onto something. If you are indeed a lyric baritone, then German Lieder will be great for you. Here's some inspiration for you from Schubert's Winterreise.

[Tessar]

Oh I'm sure he wasn't wrong. Art songs are usually very good in my voice, if I may inaccurately generalize and lump lieder and etc. into that category. I actually really dislike the Winterreis cycle, but I'm a big Shumann and Schubert fan. More Schumann than Schubert, honestly.

I just get annoyed because people at my school don't know how to say, "Great job!" without tacking on their little pedagogical ideas. At the opera workshop people did NOT come up to you and go, "you really need to fix etc., etc. about your voice!" like they want to at school. Frankly the people at the workshop were more humble. They told you if they liked your voice, and if they didn't then the subject just never came up.

I really know what my friend means when he says that every summer he hates coming back to school. The workshop was such an amazing 'professional' experience that it makes my school feel like a total amateur dump. :-/

I will say that even if I didn't get along with my teacher as well as I do, I would adore her anyways for her organization. When I show up we do not waste time. We're singing, and unless we have something we need to discuss we're focused on the music. I usually come in with a couple of questions and comments about how my practicing has been going, and then we launch into the singing.

She even keeps her music in stacks sorted by day/student, so if she needs to check over something in my music she can just grab it out of her stack and she's ready to roll... usually teachers have to go digging through their massive shelves of rep.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Hmmm...am I misremembering, or were you complaining before about people just saying you were really good, and not having anything constructive to say?

I love some of the songs from Winterreise, though I'm still having trouble "getting" the work as a whole. I'm sure it's there to get, I just need to figure out how to approach it. I have Ian Bostridge's CD, and occasionally lust over a rendition by Nathalie Stutzmann, my favourite contralto.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Oh I'm sure he wasn't wrong. Art songs are usually very good in my voice, if I may inaccurately generalize and lump lieder and etc. into that category.

Lyric voices are often guided into the 'art song' direction (and btw, sorry about Winterreise, i had no way of knowing ).

I just get annoyed because people at my school don't know how to say, "Great job!" without tacking on their little pedagogical ideas.

Just take the compliments, and as for the rest.... Ignore it If they're not your teacher, they have no business correcting your technique. It's very rude and unprofessional of them to presume that they can correct another singer who is at their very same level.

She even keeps her music in stacks sorted by day/student, so if she needs to check over something in my music she can just grab it out of her stack and she's ready to roll... usually teachers have to go digging through their massive shelves of rep.

My last teacher did the same thing. She had folders for each student. But i know what you mean about most teachers. My teachers in school had several huge drawers of music! At least it was organized in some way, though - either by voice type, by composer, or by period, because my teachers always went digging for my assignments in the same drawer.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Hmmm...am I misremembering, or were you complaining before about people just saying you were really good, and not having anything constructive to say?

I was. It's a different situation though. This guy approached me in the hallway, and he is not a student of my teacher. I was complaining about the people in my voice studio not giving me critique when we were in the actual 'critiquing' period of the seminar.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

I was complaining about the people in my voice studio not giving me critique when we were in the actual 'critiquing' period of the seminar.

Yes. There is a proper time and place for this, most definitely!

[Voronwen]

I've often heard it said that the sopranos who can roll out of bed with a working stratosphere are the ones who should be using it.

I guess that's me I was running through O Zittre nicht before breakfast.

I've actually had people argue over me before as to whether i should be singing Pamina or the Queen of the Night I seem to be one of those sopranos who can sing both. I've stuck with Pamina because it's a walk in the park. What soprano doesn't have a consistent B flat? You basically can't mess up. But if i dare myself to go the extra mile, the Queen is in there, just waiting to be debuted

Now, don't get me wrong - this isn't to say that i'm a lazy singer. I never have been and never will be. I don't avoid performing the super-high stuff in public 'because it's hard' (and it's not any harder, really - it just requires more of a trust fall). What i'm saying here is that i tend to be safely conservative about what repertoire i offer. I tend to stick to things that i know will make me look good, and leave experiments to be done in practice.

But am i selling myself short, missing out on something because of that tendency to play it safe, or is doing so actually wisdom? Should i be more daring? I know that i have the notes, but trusting them is the scary part (a teacher once told me that i had a fear of my high notes and this held me back - it's a mind thing).

At the same time, i've also heard people say that just because you have the notes, it doesn't mean you should be using them. Because of this, i've erred on the side of caution. My question is basically, when is being cautious actually holding you back? Where do we draw the line?

I love playing in the stratosphere But i've been apprehensive about putting it out there 'on display'. I have a fear of becoming one of those singers who thinks, just because she has the notes, that she can do anything and starts performing all sorts of crazy stuff before she's ready.

[Tessar]

Sounds to me like you need a coach you can trust . I say one you can trust specifically because some coaches would say, "Oh if you have the notes just sing it!" Or if it just sounds good then they might still tell you to sing it, where as maybe you would 'shine' in other rep.

I hope that tonight I made a small technical breakthrough. I did a bit of vocalizing today, and I wasn't very happy with the results. Since I was feeling depressed I went for a jog around the block to try to work out my frustration. After that I was walking to cool down, and I decided to do the 'head up' exercise my summer workshop movement teacher had showed me. I suddenly realized that other than feeling some discomfort from the stretch of my throat, I realized that I actually felt really physically good when I moved that way... I don't know why, but that sort of gave me a 'lightbulb' moment.

When I got back home I sang the first little phrase from a random piece of music with my head in that position, and I thought, "Oh, that sounded horrible. It was breathy, thin, and out of control." When I played it back I was shocked to hear a lot of color and spin in the sound. It also made me think of my teacher saying, "You are unconsciously grabbing at your voice in an attempt to control it. When you think it's out of control it will probably be correct."

I think all of this time I've been tilting my head too far down in an attempt to prevent my head from tilting upwards. I played around with my head position without singing, and I noticed that there is a small window where my larynx is in perfect placement... just a little too far down and it's like my larynx gets tucked 'under', and then if I tilt my head up a little too much it rises and gets shoved forward. But in that particular small area... where it actually almost DOES look like I'm tilting my head up... my larynx is actually perfectly balanced.

At least that's what I think. We'll see what my teacher says on Tuesday. It's just weird to me, because when it seems to be in a good singing position it really looks like my head is almost tilted up. But then again I do have a pretty long neck, so maybe that's part of it? Maybe my head needs to be a little higher than most peoples.

I'll bet I need to start doing daily neck stretches... the muscles in the front of my throat are probably shortened from the way I usually hold my neck.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Sounds to me like you need a coach you can trust . I say one you can trust specifically because some coaches would say, "Oh if you have the notes just sing it!" Or if it just sounds good then they might still tell you to sing it, where as maybe you would 'shine' in other rep.

Yes, someone i can trust would be good Every teacher or coach i've had has had a different opinion for me Hence the 'staying safe' and doing what i know works. Usually these are the common threads that everyone agrees upon. I do have a voice that falls between the usual categories, so it's tricky. It must be so easy for those who fit into one category, hm? "Oh, you're a ____, sing ____."

"When you think it's out of control it will probably be correct."

Truer words...

All of this about your larynx position is interesting. Please tell us what your teacher has to say. I don't know much about it except that those who tend to be more physically conscious of their larynx are usually guys so this is something i don't relate to.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

Yes, someone i can trust would be good Every teacher or coach i've had has had a different opinion for me Hence the 'staying safe' and doing what i know works. Usually these are the common threads that everyone agrees upon. I do have a voice that falls between the usual categories, so it's tricky. It must be so easy for those who fit into one category, hm? "Oh, you're a ____, sing ____."

It sounds to me like you really need more than just a good coach, you need a famous coach . It sounds as if you are at the level where to advance 'professionally' would require the assistance of a professional who knows the business inside and out. You might have a good Queen of the Night, but is it a Queen of the Night that would fill an opera house? Someone who coaches high coloraturas should be able to help you figure that out.

Or maybe you really are more of a Pamina. Again, the 'famous' coach could tell you . We talked about that at the summer workshop... basically all of the teachers said that once you're ready to, you actually -do- need to go audition for those 'high risk' people, because you'll get to a point where only their expertise can help you decide.

All of this about your larynx position is interesting. Please tell us what your teacher has to say. I don't know much about it except that those who tend to be more physically conscious of their larynx are usually guys so this is something i don't relate to.

Girls can have lots of larynx problems as well, just (as you said) they tend to be less conscious of them because the larynx can be more difficult to see on girls. My sister has an issue with letting hers ride high, and once I made her aware of it she was able to keep it from rising so much.

I think girls and guys probably have equal problems with the larynx, just on guys it's more obvious because the larynx is easier to see.




Today I'm going to go see the seven finalists in the SW regional met auditions. I'm excited, because I'm sure it's going to be some amazing singing! I really hope my friend does well. He actually recently won a singing competition that pitted him against what I assume are most of these same people, so... he might actually have a shot at this despite his age .

Then straight after that we have Pirates rehearsal... supposedly from 6-11, but I'm praying that they'll let us out a little early. 5 hours of rehearsal is a bit ridiculous considering that we all have school tomorrow, and some of us (ahem... ME!!!) have 8 a.m. classes to attend. I got some sleeping aids so that I can get to sleep as soon as I get home. I took some last night, and I really like it. It's herbal stuff so it doesn't knock you out, but it helps you get relaxed enough that you actually can lay down and fall asleep very quickly. I assume I'll be using it all this week... then after that I should be good without it .

[Tessar]

Oh, I forgot to mention. I'm going to go ahead and give up the 'secret teacher' thing... I'll probably see him every once in a while to coach, but if my official teacher is going to be here for at least two years, and considering that she IS very, very good... I think it will be in my best interest to stick to her .

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

You might have a good Queen of the Night, but is it a Queen of the Night that would fill an opera house?

I doubt this myself, haha! I have all the notes, yes, but likely not a 'big enough' voice. Also, of her two arias, the more lyrical O zittre nicht fits beautifully, but the big bombastic Der Holle rache does not. The notes are there, the 'drama' isn't. Perhaps i wouldn't be cut out for the entire role, but could use the first aria in the context of a recital.

When people who know their stuff hear me, "light" and "lyrical" is usually what they say. So...

Or maybe you really are more of a Pamina.

Pamina has all that lyrical quality that, in my voice, makes people 'in the know' sit up and take notice. While i am capable of the stratospheric stuff, it's the lyrical stuff that gets me compliments. On the whole, something like Vorrei spiegarvi, o Dio is ideal - it touches the stratosphere, but in a soaring, lyrical moment. And with that piece, it's the A section (the slow part, up to "a piangere tacer") that fits the best - the faster, more-dramatic B section does not flatter my voice's qualities as well. I hope that gives a more clear point of reference.

Again, the 'famous' coach could tell you . We talked about that at the summer workshop... basically all of the teachers said that once you're ready to, you actually -do- need to go audition for those 'high risk' people, because you'll get to a point where only their expertise can help you decide.

My last teacher/coach (she was both) was such a person. She tried me in a concert situation with some fast, glittery rep and then again with more lyrical (but still light and high) rep. In observing the comments i received after both scenarios, the latter won out.

I wish i could see her again The fact that she's 2 hours away makes it unrealistic to stick with her on a regular basis.

Btw, she's also the one who helped me get Pamina all set to go for that 'high-risk' audition. Last time i consulted with her, she was suggesting Massenet's Manon. I'm guessing from this that she wanted me going in the more lyrical direction Manon does need some stratosphere, but it's not her main selling point - it's a light lyric role, like Pamina.

I think girls and guys probably have equal problems with the larynx, just on guys it's more obvious because the larynx is easier to see.

Perhaps so. Like i said, it's not something i've run across too often.

Today I'm going to go see the seven finalists in the SW regional met auditions. I'm excited, because I'm sure it's going to be some amazing singing! I really hope my friend does well. He actually recently won a singing competition that pitted him against what I assume are most of these same people, so... he might actually have a shot at this despite his age .

Enjoy that! And all the best to your friend!

Pace yourself for that rehearsal, ok? And i can't say as i condone taking anything to help you sleep (have you run this by a doctor?), just don't get addicted or anything. (I'm not telling you what to do here, i just care. )

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

I doubt this myself, haha! I have all the notes, yes, but likely not a 'big enough' voice. Also, of her two arias, the more lyrical O zittre nicht fits beautifully, but the big bombastic Der Holle rache does not. The notes are there, the 'drama' isn't. Perhaps i wouldn't be cut out for the entire role, but could use the first aria in the context of a recital.
[...]
Pamina has all that lyrical quality that, in my voice, makes people 'in the know' sit up and take notice. While i am capable of the stratospheric stuff, it's the lyrical stuff that gets me compliments.

Perhaps the drama of the character doesn't suit you so well, either? I don't really know The Magic Flute - is Pamina's part less dramatic, theatrically speaking?

Originally Posted by Tessar

I got some sleeping aids so that I can get to sleep as soon as I get home. I took some last night, and I really like it. It's herbal stuff so it doesn't knock you out, but it helps you get relaxed enough that you actually can lay down and fall asleep very quickly. I assume I'll be using it all this week... then after that I should be good without it .

Even if it doesn't knock you out, that's not because it's herbal stuff, but just because it's effect is not to knock you out. Don't assume that anything herbal is therefore harmless!

Originally Posted by Voronwen

Pace yourself for that rehearsal, ok? And i can't say as i condone taking anything to help you sleep (have you run this by a doctor?), just don't get addicted or anything. (I'm not telling you what to do here, i just care. )

I was thinking the same thing, Tessar. Perhaps it's ok if it's only making you fall asleep, not making you stay asleep - but be very, very cautious. Can't you relax in other ways instead?

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

Perhaps the drama of the character doesn't suit you so well, either? I don't really know The Magic Flute - is Pamina's part less dramatic, theatrically speaking?

Oh my, YES! Pamina is a rather melancholy, very romantic character Temperament-wise, she suits me perfectly. Vocally, it's a lot more lyrical and legato. It requires a light, high voice, but with a smoother quality.

The Queen is a very dramatic character. She's also evil It requires someone who can pull off her bombastic personality. Vocally, it's quite the same. Her first aria is much more lilting and legato (at least in the A section) because she's trying to appear to someone as if she's good. In her second (and most famous) aria, she's having a fit Basically, she's doing the vocal equivalent of stamping her feet and yelling at someone. It requires a voice that not only has the notes, but a certain 'cords of steel' dramatic edge to it. For a voice that's more inclined toward legato, a 'vengeance aria' like this can be exhausting.

I like the Queen's first aria because it has the high, soaring range, nice legato A section, and fun coloratura B section topped off with a little high F but it's not the 'voice killer' that her second aria is!

In terms of what kinds of dramatic and vocal demands they require, these roles more or less correspond with the two sopranos in The Impresario. While i am physically capable of singing both of these roles because i have all the notes, i would *never* audition for Madame Herz Miss Silverpeal is much more my speed!

And, lots of sopranos who sing Silverpeal have high E's and F's, they just don't go in for the more dramatic characters. The Queens and Herz's of the world just require a certain dramatic quality that, while they may possess the range, the natural Paminas and Silverpeals just don't have.


ETA, hahahaha, it's occured to me that i've been answering all of my own questions!

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

The Queens and Herz's of the world just require a certain dramatic quality that, while they may possess the range, the natural Paminas and Silverpeals just don't have.

ETA, hahahaha, it's occured to me that i've been answering all of my own questions!

Explaining something to someone else is often a very good way of clarifying it to oneself!

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

Explaining something to someone else is often a very good way of clarifying it to oneself!

This is true!

I'm always tempted by that repertoire because i have the notes, and it is fun to play with But i think 'appropriate repertoire' goes beyond simply having the range. There are many other vocal qualities to consider, not to mention the whole 'temperament' thing.

Similarly i remember working through Je suis Titania from Mignon. I got to the point where it was all coached, memorized, etc. But when i took it to my teacher, she kept saying it was missing something. "You're not entirely comfortable with this piece as a performer", she said. And it was true. Don't get me wrong, i love the aria - it's just so impressive and cute! And with my range, i thought, this is exactly the kind of stuff i should be offering. But my teacher was right. It just wasn't clicking. There was something about it that clashed with me, the person, the performer. It was a matter of temperament. To this day i have abandoned the piece, only pulling it out occasionally when i want to give my French diction and Eb6 a workout!

It's interesting that our voices are so heavily wired into our temperament. But when you think about it, it makes sense.

Personally i'd rather be pouring out my heart and soul into Ach, ich fühl's or Lascia ch'io pianga. Neither of them go above a Bb (though i often interpolate a C into the latter during the da capo), but i've moved people with these pieces. There's a certain 'home base' where i tend to always come back to, if that makes any sense. There's nothing like hitting Lascia after too much tinkering around with crazy stuff. That voice/temperament connection feels right and good.

At the end of the day, i need to remind myself to "bloom where i'm planted". Trying new repertoire is a lot like trying on gowns - they can be the correct style and size, but entirely the wrong color.