What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Maybe Viggo couldn't pronounce Thranduil.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Maybe Eomer was a hick from the sticks who wasn't likely to know eleves apart.

Maybe dwarves (or Gimli personally) are fussy about their due.

Maybe eleves prefer not to have their names bandied about among random mortals.

Maybe Aragorn doesn't much like Thranduil, but does Legolas.

How many should I go?

[Curufin]

Maybe PJ didn't want to explain who Thranduil was?

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Maybe Eomer was a hick from the sticks who wasn't likely to know eleves apart.

Maybe dwarves (or Gimli personally) are fussy about their due.

Maybe eleves prefer not to have their names bandied about among random mortals.

Maybe Aragorn doesn't much like Thranduil, but does Legolas.

How many should I go?

Interestingly, a quick Google of T & L reveals much fanfiction taking, as its point of departure, perceived conflict between poppa and sonny. So I may be a dreamer but I'm not the only one.

How about this possible explanation? Perhaps Legolas related to Thranduil much as Spock related to his father, Sarek.

Perhaps Thranduil viewed Legolas as staying close to the Elves with a career in the Woodland Realm nobility ... but Legolas disdained being a prince, preferring fun and adventure with like-minded folks of all races.

I can very much see T calling in L to say: "OK, wise-guy: you want to Ramble On doing the Misty Mountain hop? YOU can be the one to go and tell Gandalf and Elrond we let their prize prisoner, Gollum, escape!"

[Jon S.]

If I may return to Faramir for just a moment, though one of our member's reamed me here, earlier, for daring to quote from Wikipedia, as I'm a glutton for punishment:

>> Tolkien says the original Red Book of Westmarch was not preserved. Several copies, with various notes and later additions, were made. The first copy was made by request of King Elessar of Gondor and Arnor, brought to Gondor by Frodo's companion Thain Peregrin I. This copy was known as the Thain's Book and "contained much that was later omitted or lost". In Gondor it underwent much annotation and correction, particularly regarding Elvish languages. Also added was an abbreviated version of The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen by Prince Faramir's grandson Barahir. [Source: Wikipedia; bold added]

Holy schnikes! Can there be any wonder, now, why Aragorn and Faramir, in particular, are so white-washed wonderful in Tolkien's version?!

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Interestingly, a quick Google of T & L reveals much fanfiction taking, as its point of departure, perceived conflict between poppa and sonny. So I may be a dreamer but I'm not the only one.

How about this possible explanation? Perhaps Legolas related to Thranduil much as Spock related to his father, Sarek.

Perhaps Thranduil viewed Legolas as staying close to the Elves with a career in the Woodland Realm nobility ... but Legolas disdained being a prince, preferring fun and adventure with like-minded folks of all races.

I can very much see T calling in L to say: "OK, wise-guy: you want to Ramble On doing the Misty Mountain hop? YOU can be the one to go and tell Gandalf and Elrond we let their prize prisoner, Gollum, escape!"

And Aragorn, like Picard, has a stronger relationship with either!

Yeah, now we're cookin! I'm sure this was the conversation PJ and crew were having.They were saying "What Star Trek parallels can we develop, here?"

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Yeah, now we're cookin! I'm sure this was the conversation PJ and crew were having.They were saying "What Star Trek parallels can we develop, here?"

Instead of PJ doing the films as he did, it should have been Mel Brooks doing the Space Balls ME equivalent!

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

If I may return to Faramir for just a moment, though one of our member's reamed me here, earlier, for daring to quote from Wikipedia, as I'm a glutton for punishment:

>> Tolkien says the original Red Book of Westmarch was not preserved. Several copies, with various notes and later additions, were made. The first copy was made by request of King Elessar of Gondor and Arnor, brought to Gondor by Frodo's companion Thain Peregrin I. This copy was known as the Thain's Book and "contained much that was later omitted or lost". In Gondor it underwent much annotation and correction, particularly regarding Elvish languages. Also added was an abbreviated version of The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen by Prince Faramir's grandson Barahir. [Source: Wikipedia; bold added]

Holy schnikes! Can there be any wonder, now, why Aragorn and Faramir, in particular, are so white-washed wonderful in Tolkien's version?!

That's all fairly directly from "note on the shire records" in the Fellowship. It was the "first folio", as it were, but written by a Gondorian scribe.

So, there was the original "red book" from Bilbo and frodo's notes. There was the Gondorain copy, completed SR 1592. And there were parallel copies made for samwise's family.

[Jon S.]

So then I totally stick by my initial analysis: the version of the LOTR that Tolkien "channeled" was the Gondorian Library's "Authorized Edition" whereas what PJ has given us are the "unauthorized biographies."

Were we taking now about American politicians rather than Gondorian nobility it wouldn't even be a close call.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

So then I totally stick by my initial analysis: the version of the LOTR that Tolkien "channeled" was the Gondorian Library's "Authorized Edition" whereas what PJ has given us are the "unauthorized biographies."

Were we taking now about American politicians rather than Gondorian nobility it wouldn't even be a close call.

True, but we would know for certain that the call probably came at 3am.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

So then I totally stick by my initial analysis: the version of the LOTR that Tolkien "channeled" was the Gondorian Library's "Authorized Edition" whereas what PJ has given us are the "unauthorized biographies."

Like the unofficial guide to Disney World. Handy to have.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

know you are, that's why I was so surprised when you said they were going south anyway...

I didn't mean to imply they all lived in and around Minas Tirith with Boromir, just that all three of them had to cross the Misty Mountains and two of them also had to cross the Anduin to get to their home. Just like the One Ring. Yeah, the Ring went south. It also went east. Its goal was Mordor, which according to the maps I have is south of Mirkwood and the Lonely Mountain, all east of Anduin.

As an oft-used designated driver, I perhaps have a broader definition of "on the way" than others.

Once again, an Internet discussion of great literature becomes a semantic argument (though argument is a strong word here...I'm not upset in the least and hope you aren't either).

And Curufin, we really need to discuss these issues some time. I can only think of two Sindar who were legitimate jerks. The Noldor, on the other hand, had an entire branch of the family who were certifiable A-holes. Sure, they were valiant and likely had luxuriant hair flowing in the breeze of battle but otherwise what a bunch of tools.

Actually, this is such a broad topic, I'll start with something kind of narrow and then see where it goes. Check out the Silm forum....

[Curufin]

I'd love to have a discussion on the Noldor. They're my favorite of all of Tolkien's creations (and probably the ones I know most about).

I'll watch the Silm forum!

[katya]

Originally Posted by Curufin

...thirty or forty Legolasi (is that the right plural? lol) ...

Maybe in Quenya

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Originally Posted by Curufin

I'd love to have a discussion on the Noldor. They're my favorite of all of Tolkien's creations (and probably the ones I know most about).

I'll watch the Silm forum!

I love 66.667% of the Noldor!

[Curufin]

Let me guess. The Houses of Finarfin and Fingolfin.

[Earniel]

The side-discussion about Legolas' age has been moved to its own thread here. I should have said something earlier, but as it was already that long, I decided to split it off instead. Feel free to continue the Legolas-discussion there.

[Jon S.]

Two nights ago, I re-watched the first of the two TTT EE discs with my son. Last night, we re-watched the second. While the Arwen flashback swoons and Frodo freak-outs continue to disappoint, the Elves showing up at Helms Deep scene just gets better and better with every viewing. Loved it when Legolas, in the middle of conversing with Aragorn, looks up and speaks, "Those are no orc horns!" and when the soldier on guard screams, "Open the gates!" It was also very cool how when Haldir intends to greet Aragorn formally, Aragorn rushes to hug him, saying, "You are most welcome!" It only lasts a fraction of a second - you'll miss it if you don't look carefully - but the smile then on Haldir's face is priceless.

"We have come to honor old alliances." Noble words befitting noble men and women engaged in a noble cause.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

So who was left to defend Lorien again?

[Curufin]

Who cares about Lothlórien (or Tolkien's themes, for that matter) as long as we can have a heart-rending "multiculturalism" scene?