Mooters' RotK reviews

[mithrand1r]

I just saw LOTR:ROTK.

I am just going to write down some of my impressions of the film. (I am going to try and separate film from book if I can)

I thought the grey havens was nicely done.

Shelob was portrayed very well.

The more I think about it, the Eye of Sauron portrayed in the film is too literal for my taste.

A large emphaisis on battles and fighting.

A better balance of humor with drama, than other two films.

No Dwarf tossing jokes.

Denethor did not make any sense as a leader of the city.

Battle scenes were very chaotic and difficult (for me) to follow.

It seemed odd to me that Gandalf would say Pippen was in service to Gondor, then moments later we see pippin taking his oath of fealty to Denethor.

I did not like the part with the overlay of pippin singing, denethor eating and faromir's charge of the light brigade. (Singing was fine. The charge was stupid. [Not so much how it was portayed, but the fact that it happened]

Minas Morgul looked very well done. I liked the lighting effect on the city.

The oath breakers reminded me of the SC Johnson Scrubbing Bubbles with the speed and ferocity that the undead soldiers took care of the enemy soldiers.

Aragorn's acceptance of cup from Eowyn seemed to signify something to Eowyn and Theoden, but I am not sure what.

Why would Aragorn say no to Eowyn? As far as he knew, Arwen left for the Grey Havens.

Interlude with Elrond and Arwen seemed out of place (for me)

Interesting that Elrond was able to arrive in Rohan to deliver his message to Aragorn.

The attack against the oliphants reminded me of SW:ESB on hoth.

Legolas must have stickum on his hands and feet to climb on the sides of the oliphants.

Grond was well done. (no pun intended )

Seems odd that the hobbits would sleep so close to the edge of the cliff with gollum there. (promise or not, I still think it is odd.)

Musical score was excellent.

Cirith Ungol -- The way the orcs killed themselves fighting did not make much sense to me. (If I was to strictly judge film without any reference to book.) Seemed like a convenient way to give Sam easy access to tower to find Frodo.

Never saw Sam take the ring and sting. This made it look odd when Sam tells Frodo that he has the ring.

The stairs did not really look like stairs to me. More like a path up the mountain.

Seemed odd that Saruman would be without power in Orthanc. He is a wizard of same order as Gandalf and he is very powerful. (as shown during wizard duel from FOTR)

Saruman being tied up in this manner is unsatisfactory.

Surprised that Faromir lived after being dragged aroung by the stirrups.

[Millane]

It seemed odd to me that Gandalf would say Pippen was in service to Gondor, then moments later we see pippin taking his oath of fealty to Denethor.

i think he was in the proper proceeding just hadnt taken place yet...
not being rude but how would you have liked to see Sauron being portrayed in a non literal way, to me works well in the book, best they could do for the movie...

[Elvedans]

I saw it for the third time today and i still cant work out what Eowyn says when she passes the cup to Aragorn. It is still amazing, but i did notice the thing about Legolas climbing up the bare skin of a Mumak.
By the way, is nobody in Middle Earth a vertigo sufferer? Frodo and Sam sleep right on the edge of a drop steeper than any ive ever seen and the Rohirrim camp on a remarkably small platform on the side of a very high cliff without batting an eyelid. Then there's the whole "elf standing on top of a moving Mumak like he s having a stroll in the park" thing.
However, it still made me cry with joy. My favourite scenes are the Lighting of the Beacons, The Muster of Rohan, The charge of the Rohirrim and Aragorn at the black gates.

[azalea]

I agree with a lot of what you said, mithrandir. You put your finger on some of the specifics that added up to the "choppiness" I felt while watching it. There were some scenes that weren't very well "explained," and could really have used a little fleshing out, such as the orcs fighting amongst themselves in CU. Hopefully we'll get it in the EE. Also, the Aragorn/ Eowyn bits you mentioned -- yeah, what exactly was it that made Theoden think they were getting together? That did confuse me, and I think it could have been left out. It was enough to have Aragorn "break her heart," and I still maintain they could have found room for at least a LITTLE of the Houses of Healing.

Regarding the Eye: I probably would have just made it more subtle, which would have been less visually striking and tangable for the audience, but in turn would have been creepier and more mysterious. Along the lines of "what you don't see can be more horrifying that what you do," I might have a beam coming from the upper window of the tower, rather than the whole eye displayed on the top, then had flashes of an eye when Frodo had visions of it or could feel it on him.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Elvedans
I saw it for the third time today and i still cant work out what Eowyn says when she passes the cup to Aragorn.

I believe she says "Westu hal". I remember that being said to Theoden in the books. I don't know it's meaning, and I can't find it in it's exact context in the book, but I know I just read it last week, lol. I would assume it is some kind of welcome/greeting or a blessing of some sort...

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by Millane
i think he was in the proper proceeding just hadnt taken place yet...
not being rude but how would you have liked to see Sauron being portrayed in a non literal way, to me works well in the book, best they could do for the ovie...

Re: Pippin & oath of fealty.
That is a good enough explanation for me.


Re: Sauron. I do not consider your question rude. It is valid.

I am not sure what would have been a better way to portray Sauron. I think azalea's thought is more in line with what I was thinking.

Originally posted by azalea
Regarding the Eye: I probably would have just made it more subtle, which would have been less visually striking and tangable for the audience, but in turn would have been creepier and more mysterious. Along the lines of "what you don't see can be more horrifying that what you do,"

I guess it is because of the way that Sauron is portrayed in the book. Sauron only permits to have his servents refer to him as the "lidless eye", but IIRC Gollum mentions that he is a black form with only four fingers on the hand that formerly wore the ring. Sauron is just a presense (sp?) behind the scenes pulling all of the strings.

Sauron can focus his attention in many areas, but not necessarily at the same time. Similar to a beam of light but not the same thing.

I did not like the way that Sauron was focusing most of his attention within Mordor (in a spotlight fashion) in the movie. In the book most of his attention was focused on the battle at Minas Tirith and then on the approaching army from Minas Tirith approaching the Black Gate.

It just comes down to my personal taste. I do not blame PJ & Company for their decision in portraying Sauron. Their method is just too literal for my liking.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Elvedans
I saw it for the third time today and i still cant work out what Eowyn says when she passes the cup to Aragorn. It is still amazing, but i did notice the thing about Legolas climbing up the bare skin of a Mumak.

He's actually climbing arrows that had been shot into the Mumak's side. I still think this stunt is out of place in the movie though.

By the way, is nobody in Middle Earth a vertigo sufferer? Frodo and Sam sleep right on the edge of a drop steeper than any ive ever seen and the Rohirrim camp on a remarkably small platform on the side of a very high cliff without batting an eyelid. Then there's the whole "elf standing on top of a moving Mumak like he s having a stroll in the park" thing.

Hobbits do not like heights. In Lorien, (in the books) they didn't feel comfortable sleeping on flets in trees. I felt their choice of campsite was odd considering how little Hobbits like heights, and how percarious they were.

However, it still made me cry with joy. My favourite scenes are the Lighting of the Beacons, The Muster of Rohan, The charge of the Rohirrim and Aragorn at the black gates.

I love these parts also. Despite the mistakes, I did enjoy the movie a lot.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Originally posted by azalea
Regarding the Eye: I probably would have just made it more subtle, which would have been less visually striking and tangable for the audience, but in turn would have been creepier and more mysterious. Along the lines of "what you don't see can be more horrifying that what you do,"



I agree with more subtle. In fact this is my single biggest complaint of all three films, PJ if your listening THE EYE IS NOT REAL. Sauron is in the Tower. He has taken the form of a hideously large (but not gigantic) dark man shape still missing the finger from which the ring was cut (in case anyone still doesn't know this is covered in letters and the Sil).The “eye” is a symbol of his focused power.

There are so many ways this dark shape could have been shown in the shadows of the tower, a real missed opportunity. As for the lighthouse eye, what would the wraiths do if they got the ring? Throw it at the burning eye? stupid! stupid! stupid!

[Entlover]

Your comments are excellent, mithrandir.
Some comments in reply:

Originally posted by mithrand1r
[
"I did not like the part with the overlay of pippin singing, denethor eating and faromir's charge of the light brigade. (Singing was fine. The charge was stupid. [Not so much how it was portayed, but the fact that it happened]"
I too found this scene very uncomfortable to watch, though I enjoyed Billy's singing a lot. It's supposed to make us feel this way, disgusted, sorrowful and angry at once. It did make Faramir look like an idiot for taking all his men on a suicide run to please his father. In the book it's not so obviously suicidal.


"Aragorn's acceptance of cup from Eowyn seemed to signify something to Eowyn and Theoden, but I am not sure what."
I believe it signified a blessing only, but she's assuming he feels the same way about her as she feels, so Theoden, who doesn't know any reason why they shouldn't get together, assumes they have an understanding.

"Why would Aragorn say no to Eowyn? As far as he knew, Arwen left for the Grey Havens."
Well, if you've ever been in love, you don't just grab the next person of the right sex if the one you're in love with happens to become unavailable. (I don't mean that to sound rude) Aragorn's in love with Arwen (we may not like his taste, but that's the plot) and doesn't want a substitute. He says as much to Eowyn, "I can't give you what you need."


"Cirith Ungol -- The way the orcs killed themselves fighting did not make much sense to me. (If I was to strictly judge film without any reference to book.) Seemed like a convenient way to give Sam easy access to tower to find Frodo."
It seemed pretty clear to me that they were fighting over Frodo's mithril shirt, and it turned into a freeforall -- they're a nasty violent bunch anyway.

"Never saw Sam take the ring and sting. This made it look odd when Sam tells Frodo that he has the ring."
That was supposed to be suspenseful. I really missed the part where Sam puts on the ring and imagines himself the Gardener of Middle-earth, am hoping some of that may appear in the EE. But probably not since that would ruin the suspense.

[/B]

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by Entlover
Your comments are excellent, mithrandir.
Some comments in reply:

"Why would Aragorn say no to Eowyn? As far as he knew, Arwen left for the Grey Havens."

Well, if you've ever been in love, you don't just grab the next person of the right sex if the one you're in love with happens to become unavailable. (I don't mean that to sound rude) Aragorn's in love with Arwen (we may not like his taste, but that's the plot) and doesn't want a substitute. He says as much to Eowyn, "I can't give you what you need."

Thanks for the complement.

To clarify a little bit. From TT, it seemed that Aragorn was resolved to let Awren sail into the west forever. In Rohan it seemed that Arragorn and Eowyn were getting along well and that it may possibly lead to a deeper relationship.

However, your point is well taken. I did not wish to imply that Aragorn should grab the first available lady to fill Awren's spot.

From the movie, it just seemed a bit sudden to me. (Even though I am aware of how things turn out in the books.)

[Gerbil]

Seen it again (and hopefully about to get it on DVD - this whole country is full of pirate DVD stores - some of them even boast they are the extended edition, so god knows who they are trying to convince!), and I have to say, my views on each of the scene polarizes more with each viewing.
The great bits get better, and the bad gets abominable.

First off:
- Unlike many people, I REALLY HATE the start. The smeagol bit is just plain rubbish. Serkis, who acts so well as gollum, is here just shown as rubbish. I feel there´s no passion, or talent displayed at all here, and given that while this slow bit of pap is playing out I´m thinking ´they could have shown Saruman here´, well, I´m never going to like it. FotR opened with the rather tasty back story, TTT opened with the fantastic (and still one of my favourite clips of the whole lot) Gandalf vs Balrog freestyle freefalling competition, and we get this weak drawn out non-plot-enhancing thing. I´m more likely to yawn in boredom here than anywhere else.

Secondly:
- The music. I lurve the original compositions. I hate the sped-up super version of the original themes.
- Army of the dead. Overused,and as noted elsewhere, kind of make the Rohirrim a bit pointless.Theodon would be glad to know he died for no reason. Old codger´s time was up either way
- The endings. I really dislike the final one of Sam. I know PJ used this as his last ditch attempt to pretend he was faithful to the source, but I just don´t think it works here. Apart from the unrest of the audience, I don´t think it´s well acted or makes enough of an emotional point as the source text. Should have stopped at the Havens. Which I think were nice, but to be honest the Elves really chose a crap place to build their main harbour, I mean, could they have found anywhere less conducive to shipping?
- The more I see of the suicide charge of Faramir the more I hate the extremely simplistic analogy at the end of Denethor eating like a 3 year old. I must admit, I´m a bit suprised that many people had to have this bit explained to them, because for me it´s about as obvious as anything can be. That it´s rather forced (exactly WHO do you know that eats like that?) just annoys me.
- The Eye. Forget the Duracell Bunny, this year I´ll be mostly wearing Sauron Batteries.
- Charge of the Rohirrim - oh yeah baby!
- Denethor generally - soon to have his backstory explained more in the next New Line film ´Dumb, Dumber and Denethor´, a wacky look at the ruler of Minas Tirith and how care in the community goes wrong - with hilarious results!
- Beacon lighting - while filmically (sp?) very nicely done, this still bothers me (even if I ignore the god-awful way it all gets started). Mainly annoying simply because most of the beacons are just lumps of wood above the snow line on mountians. Any decent snow or rain storm would put these little babies out of action in a second - hardly a good idea given what they are for. Also, in stupidly remote locations with no provision for the wardens of each beacon. I pity the poor gits who have to trek up the mountains every day and (more than likely) rebuild the blown down stacks of wood.
- Arwen - still hate her. 3rd billing, achieves northing. Can´t act, can´t sing, can probably dance a little.
- Cirith Ungol - they left so much out this part really didn´t make sense.
- As usual, all the essential omitted bits at the expense of PJ´s purely carnal love of the MASSIVE engine. Who needs proper plot developments or well thought out characters when you can extend a battle scene for 5 minutes, eh?

OK favourite characters (acting and actual role in film):

Theoden, Eowyn. Probably the only two who stay even reasonably close to what they should be in the book (although Theoden came close to being spanked for his ´why should we help Gondor?´non-plot twist.
Sam. He were great, so I´ll forgive him being sent away.

Least favourite:

Denethor (do I really have to explain why?), Arwen and Elrond - mainly because they are just a bit silly with their out-of-context actions in the book.
Smeagol. Pointless, badly acted, and when he´s in the ´turning into gollum´ stages he just looks really crap. I mean, like, awful. Badly made up, stupid looking, pathetic.

Wasted opportunitys:

Gandalf and Aragorn: Both actors do so much with the rubbish dealt out to them by PJ that they deserve special mention for rising above their roles. Sadly though, the sheer scale of the changes to how they act mean I (metaphorically) weep when I think about them.

And the rest:

Acting generally was good. Frodo at least seems to have expanded his reportoire of facial expressions from hurt and doey-eyed innocence lost to include the scary maniacal I CLAIM THE RING face and the equally scary (but unintentionally so) I HAVE REACHED PEACE face at the grey havens. I´m sorry girls, but that face tells me he was thinking about Legolas in a swimming costume...

Scenery and locations as ever were beautiful, but that´s pretty much a given. I´ve started re-reading LotR (slowly though, the books are very expensive in english over here, not to mention hard to find), and I´m already noting two things - one is that my memory, while pretty damn amazing of LotR books, still leaves enough gaps for me to ´rediscover´ them afresh each time. The other is that PJ really really really did a crap job of converting book to screen. Or, book to pamphlet to screen, since he dumbed it down so much.

Book Aragorn would have the wimpy film Aragorn anyday! (Not that I´m dissing Viggo who acted superbly, just that PJ threw him a bit of a raw deal).

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by Gerbil
Seen it again (and hopefully about to get it on DVD - this whole country is full of pirate DVD stores - some of them even boast they are the extended edition, so god knows who they are trying to convince!), and I have to say, my views on each of the scene polarizes more with each viewing.
The great bits get better, and the bad gets abominable.

First off:
- Unlike many people, I REALLY HATE the start. The smeagol bit is just plain rubbish. Serkis, who acts so well as gollum, is here just shown as rubbish. I feel there´s no passion, or talent displayed at all here, and given that while this slow bit of pap is playing out I´m thinking ´they could have shown Saruman here´, well, I´m never going to like it. FotR opened with the rather tasty back story, TTT opened with the fantastic (and still one of my favourite clips of the whole lot) Gandalf vs Balrog freestyle freefalling competition, and we get this weak drawn out non-plot-enhancing thing. I´m more likely to yawn in boredom here than anywhere else.

Secondly:
- The music. I lurve the original compositions. I hate the sped-up super version of the original themes.
- Army of the dead. Overused,and as noted elsewhere, kind of make the Rohirrim a bit pointless.Theodon would be glad to know he died for no reason. Old codger´s time was up either way
- The endings. I really dislike the final one of Sam. I know PJ used this as his last ditch attempt to pretend he was faithful to the source, but I just don´t think it works here. Apart from the unrest of the audience, I don´t think it´s well acted or makes enough of an emotional point as the source text. Should have stopped at the Havens. Which I think were nice, but to be honest the Elves really chose a crap place to build their main harbour, I mean, could they have found anywhere less conducive to shipping?
- The more I see of the suicide charge of Faramir the more I hate the extremely simplistic analogy at the end of Denethor eating like a 3 year old. I must admit, I´m a bit suprised that many people had to have this bit explained to them, because for me it´s about as obvious as anything can be. That it´s rather forced (exactly WHO do you know that eats like that?) just annoys me.
- The Eye. Forget the Duracell Bunny, this year I´ll be mostly wearing Sauron Batteries.
- Charge of the Rohirrim - oh yeah baby!
- Denethor generally - soon to have his backstory explained more in the next New Line film ´Dumb, Dumber and Denethor´, a wacky look at the ruler of Minas Tirith and how care in the community goes wrong - with hilarious results!
- Beacon lighting - while filmically (sp?) very nicely done, this still bothers me (even if I ignore the god-awful way it all gets started). Mainly annoying simply because most of the beacons are just lumps of wood above the snow line on mountians. Any decent snow or rain storm would put these little babies out of action in a second - hardly a good idea given what they are for. Also, in stupidly remote locations with no provision for the wardens of each beacon. I pity the poor gits who have to trek up the mountains every day and (more than likely) rebuild the blown down stacks of wood.
- Arwen - still hate her. 3rd billing, achieves northing. Can´t act, can´t sing, can probably dance a little.
- Cirith Ungol - they left so much out this part really didn´t make sense.
- As usual, all the essential omitted bits at the expense of PJ´s purely carnal love of the MASSIVE engine. Who needs proper plot developments or well thought out characters when you can extend a battle scene for 5 minutes, eh?

OK favourite characters (acting and actual role in film):

Theoden, Eowyn. Probably the only two who stay even reasonably close to what they should be in the book (although Theoden came close to being spanked for his ´why should we help Gondor?´non-plot twist.
Sam. He were great, so I´ll forgive him being sent away.

Least favourite:

Denethor (do I really have to explain why?), Arwen and Elrond - mainly because they are just a bit silly with their out-of-context actions in the book.
Smeagol. Pointless, badly acted, and when he´s in the ´turning into gollum´ stages he just looks really crap. I mean, like, awful. Badly made up, stupid looking, pathetic.

Wasted opportunitys:

Gandalf and Aragorn: Both actors do so much with the rubbish dealt out to them by PJ that they deserve special mention for rising above their roles. Sadly though, the sheer scale of the changes to how they act mean I (metaphorically) weep when I think about them.

And the rest:

Acting generally was good. Frodo at least seems to have expanded his reportoire of facial expressions from hurt and doey-eyed innocence lost to include the scary maniacal I CLAIM THE RING face and the equally scary (but unintentionally so) I HAVE REACHED PEACE face at the grey havens. I´m sorry girls, but that face tells me he was thinking about Legolas in a swimming costume...

Scenery and locations as ever were beautiful, but that´s pretty much a given. I´ve started re-reading LotR (slowly though, the books are very expensive in english over here, not to mention hard to find), and I´m already noting two things - one is that my memory, while pretty damn amazing of LotR books, still leaves enough gaps for me to ´rediscover´ them afresh each time. The other is that PJ really really really did a crap job of converting book to screen. Or, book to pamphlet to screen, since he dumbed it down so much.

Book Aragorn would have the wimpy film Aragorn anyday! (Not that I´m dissing Viggo who acted superbly, just that PJ threw him a bit of a raw deal).

Well said.

I mainly agree with you about the smeagol opening. They could have made it less time consuming as in Bakshi's version (about 30-50 seconds, IIRC)

If Denethor's eating was supposed to symbolize anything I must of missed it. Expect for a reference to Nero playing the fiddle as Rome burns, I found it pointless and unecessary. Hard to belive movie Denethor was permitted to remain steward of Gondor.

I did not feel strongly about Sam's ending. It wasn't spectacular or very bad. It just was.

I never considered the practicality of the becon lighting system. I just thought it was visually pretty cool. You make a good point. Should pass long johns to the people manning the beacons.

[Nurvingiel]

I agree with you about the opening Gerbil. I actually haven't said anything about it yet, but that part made me wonder why Andy Serkis (who is great in TTT) was cast as Gollum? The make-up of the transformation part was okay, I didn't take issue with it. I was bored during that part thinking, "Get corrupted already Gollum."

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Yes, the opening is terrible. I must have missed the part where Tolkien says Smeagol and Deagol were retarded.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
Yes, the opening is terrible. I must have missed the part where Tolkien says Smeagol and Deagol were retarded.

I agree with that. They did seem to be like country bumkin idiots. Not at all the way I would think they were.


Nurvingiel - I didn't get bored with the corruption part - I just think that the deagol/smeagol part was stupid.

[Nurvingiel]

I don't have a problem with the corruption part. What I meant was during the fishing/fighting scene I was bored and wanted it to advance to the corruption part.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
I don't have a problem with the corruption part. What I meant was during the fishing/fighting scene I was bored and wanted it to advance to the corruption part.

Okay - that's the same part that I had a problem with too. I thought you had a problem with the transformation part and thought that it dragged out too muh with him climbing into the Misty Mouintains and everything.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
Yes, the opening is terrible. I must have missed the part where Tolkien says Smeagol and Deagol were retarded.

It was in the same letter where Tolkien said he wished that he had written Arwen taking a weakling Frodo to the Ford. It was also where he said he wanted her fate tied to The Ring, so that Aragorn would have a real reason to fight against Sauron, not this "mamby-pamby to save ME crap" as he so eloquently put it in this letter. It's such a good thing that PJ found that letter and made those great changes in the movie.

[The Gaffer]

Hehe. I couldn't care less whether they'd gone up to Wolvercote cemetery, dug Tolkien up, plugged him into the mains and got him to sign-off the script: what matters is whether it works as a film. Which that opening doesn't.

Nice review, Gerbil. "Nice" as in thoughtful and accurate, that is.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I agree with that. They did seem to be like country bumkin idiots. Not at all the way I would think they were.

I agree. In fact, I really disliked the way all the hobbits were portrayed as country bumpkins. I'm surprised they managed to find their way out of the front door, let alone destroy the Ring

And I agree about the lighting of the beacons - it was completely impractical. Just because it looked pretty you were supposed to forget how silly it was.