feanor a villian - Page 12

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 08-29-2002, 07:17 PM

Thanks Jador. I think I've just been insulted.

BeardofPants · 08-29-2002, 07:21 PM

Well, if you ARE like Feanor, then at the very least, it proves you're not evil.... just misunderstood.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 08-29-2002, 07:35 PM

That's it, misunderstood.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 08-29-2002, 07:37 PM

Ok, I just had a terrible thought that we are off topic and possibly spaming. Not me of course, but seriously we should get back on topic boys and girls. My fault, I know.

Christiana · 08-29-2002, 10:19 PM

tut tut tut.an admin spamming.*shakes finger*j/k!

Beruthiel · 08-30-2002, 12:43 AM

I know you're all debating about Feanor being a spirit of "Fire" like a Balrog, but I don't think it's the same thing.
Tolkien writes that Elves are different from Men in that they have long lifespans, but their life forces slowly consume them from within, like a flame burning them from the inside out.

Right. Now here are the quotes about Feanor's spirit:

Quote:

Feanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame.

Perhaps this refers to those who are like shining stars, as we say today - they are candles with flames at both ends, burning brighter than the rest of us, even though it may be for a shorter time.

Quote:

But in the bearing of her son Miriel was consumed in spirit and body; and after his birth she yearned for release from the labour of living. And when she had named him, she said to Finwe: 'Never again shall I bear child; for strength that nourished the life of many has gone forth into Feanor.'

Okkaaaay... does that suggest that he has the life spirit and strength of many?

Quote:

All his love he gave thereafter to his son; and Feanor grew swiftly, as if a secret fire were kindled within him.

That almost suggests that he had already the spirit and the fire of the Silmarils within him, even before he had created them.

Quote:

For Feanor was driven by the fire of his own heart only,

Right, now it's a fire of the heart, like ambition.

And finally:

Quote:

Then he died; but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos.

Wow. So at least we know he did not reincarnate. It's interesting to note that Feanor is really the only Elf described as such.
So is he a spirit of fire, or are we talking totally metaphorically? Then how do we explain his death? What do you think?

BeardofPants · 08-30-2002, 12:57 AM

Well, we weren't really talking about that. BH brought it up to **** stir, and then we all went OT.

The actual debate that we're haggling over, is whether or not Feanor was evil. There is a camp that says, yes he was an evil blackguarde, so stop deluding yourselves. And then there are the ones who are right (namely me and a bunch of other people

), who are postulating that while Feanor commited some evil actions, this doesn't necessarily make him an evil person. He was just misunderstood.

Beruthiel · 08-30-2002, 01:09 AM

I think Feanor was greedy. I think that if he had not been spoiled by his father, he might have been a tenderer-hearted person. Perhaps that fire that blazed within him forced him to act brashly. THe fell words of Morgoth swayed him even though he saw thru his disguise. But by then it was too late. Acts had been done against his family, there were words spoken that were not thought about beforehand - fate also took part in this. It was a series of bad moves, all timed perfectly to guide poor Feanor into the trap of The Curse.

So I think he might have handled things a bit better, but I do not see that it would have caused a great change in the outcome of the Kinslaying.

Blackheart · 09-03-2002, 11:56 AM

Pffft.

You guys know that Melkor was the good guy.

Here were the nasty ol Valar locking all the elves up in Aman, so that they'd be overprotected wimpy Nancy elfs reading poetry and baking buns.

And It obviously offended Melkor's sensibilities, so he devised a plan to rescue some of them...

That whole thing with the Silmarils was just a misunderstanding, and anyway, you can't make an omelet without crushing a few heads... err eggs. I mean eggs...

Christiana · 09-04-2002, 12:02 AM

we all no an orcs standpoint.

Blackheart · 09-04-2002, 12:38 PM

Shhh. I'm in disguise

Sheeana · 05-18-2003, 06:12 PM

Hey, *bump* Feanor was just misunderstood - who's with me?

Attalus · 05-18-2003, 08:24 PM

AAARGH, an earlier Feanor debate, just when we had a stake through the heart of the earlier one. OK, I'll state my reactions after looking through this thread:
1. The difference between an evil person, man or elf, and a man or elf that does evil is an entirely false dichotomy. There is no such thing as a totally evil individual, as C.S. Lewis proved, or they would have no good qualities, such as intelligence, will, etc.
2. JRRT was a Roman Catholic, and that Church regards Pride as the worst of all sins. Period. Pride is the farthest thing from a good quality that you can get, and is not an excuse for evil actions, but rather the chief cause of them.
3. A villain is a character in a literary work that does evil things.
4. Feanor was directly and indirectly responsible for many evil actions, the Kinslaying, the abandonment of his brother's host, etc. He was therefore evil and a villain. Not in Melkor's or Sauron's league, but quite in Saruman's, I think.

Arien the Maia · 05-18-2003, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheeana
Hey, *bump* Feanor was just misunderstood - who's with me?

Me!

Attalus · 05-18-2003, 08:43 PM

*beats head on computer desk*

Blackheart · 05-20-2003, 10:00 AM

Don't worry about it. He was a villain. He's sitting right here next to me in the villain's club.

Females don't want him to be a villain because they think he's cute, but you know how they are, they almost always wind up picking the wrong guy......

Artanis · 05-20-2003, 01:13 PM

Hehe - Blackheart you're wrong. We think he's cute because he's a villain. If that's what he is.

Blackheart · 05-21-2003, 12:35 PM

Bah. If that were so then all the women would think that I was cute, instead of merely ruggedly handsome...

Ruinel · 05-21-2003, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blackheart
Don't worry about it. He was a villain. He's sitting right here next to me in the villain's club.

Females don't want him to be a villain because they think he's cute, but you know how they are, they almost always wind up picking the wrong guy......

That is soooooo not true. Feanor is a villian and he is evil. He is not cute. Finrod, now that's an Elf who's hot. *fans self with folder from her desk*

Artanis · 05-21-2003, 01:32 PM

Ruggedly handsome is also yummy.

Fëanor was not a villain to begin with, but he became one. You misled him, Blackheart.

08-29-2002, 07:21 PM	#222
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Well, if you ARE like Feanor, then at the very least, it proves you're not evil.... just misunderstood. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

08-29-2002, 10:19 PM	#225
Christiana Elf Lord Join Date: May 2002 Location: Searching desperately for a swan boat to take to Valinor Posts: 1,231	tut tut tut.an admin spamming.shakes fingerj/k! __________________ I take full responsibility for my actions, except for those that are somebody else's fault Having someone to blame is nearly as good as having a solution to the problem Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them, and you habe their shoes. ~Frieda Norris

08-30-2002, 12:57 AM	#227
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Well, we weren't really talking about that. BH brought it up to **** stir, and then we all went OT. The actual debate that we're haggling over, is whether or not Feanor was evil. There is a camp that says, yes he was an evil blackguarde, so stop deluding yourselves. And then there are the ones who are right (namely me and a bunch of other people ), who are postulating that while Feanor commited some evil actions, this doesn't necessarily make him an evil person. He was just misunderstood. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

09-03-2002, 11:56 AM	#229
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Pffft. You guys know that Melkor was the good guy. Here were the nasty ol Valar locking all the elves up in Aman, so that they'd be overprotected wimpy Nancy elfs reading poetry and baking buns. And It obviously offended Melkor's sensibilities, so he devised a plan to rescue some of them... That whole thing with the Silmarils was just a misunderstanding, and anyway, you can't make an omelet without crushing a few heads... err eggs. I mean eggs... __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

09-04-2002, 12:02 AM	#230
Christiana Elf Lord Join Date: May 2002 Location: Searching desperately for a swan boat to take to Valinor Posts: 1,231	we all no an orcs standpoint. __________________ I take full responsibility for my actions, except for those that are somebody else's fault Having someone to blame is nearly as good as having a solution to the problem Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them, and you habe their shoes. ~Frieda Norris

08-29-2002, 07:17 PM	#221
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Thanks Jador. I think I've just been insulted.

08-29-2002, 07:35 PM	#223
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	That's it, misunderstood.

08-29-2002, 07:37 PM	#224
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Ok, I just had a terrible thought that we are off topic and possibly spaming. Not me of course, but seriously we should get back on topic boys and girls. My fault, I know.

08-30-2002, 01:09 AM	#228
Beruthiel Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 41	I think Feanor was greedy. I think that if he had not been spoiled by his father, he might have been a tenderer-hearted person. Perhaps that fire that blazed within him forced him to act brashly. THe fell words of Morgoth swayed him even though he saw thru his disguise. But by then it was too late. Acts had been done against his family, there were words spoken that were not thought about beforehand - fate also took part in this. It was a series of bad moves, all timed perfectly to guide poor Feanor into the trap of The Curse. So I think he might have handled things a bit better, but I do not see that it would have caused a great change in the outcome of the Kinslaying.

09-04-2002, 12:38 PM	#231
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Shhh. I'm in disguise __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

05-18-2003, 06:12 PM	#232
Sheeana Lord of the Pants Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,382	Hey, bump Feanor was just misunderstood - who's with me?

05-18-2003, 08:24 PM	#233
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	AAARGH, an earlier Feanor debate, just when we had a stake through the heart of the earlier one. OK, I'll state my reactions after looking through this thread: 1. The difference between an evil person, man or elf, and a man or elf that does evil is an entirely false dichotomy. There is no such thing as a totally evil individual, as C.S. Lewis proved, or they would have no good qualities, such as intelligence, will, etc. 2. JRRT was a Roman Catholic, and that Church regards Pride as the worst of all sins. Period. Pride is the farthest thing from a good quality that you can get, and is not an excuse for evil actions, but rather the chief cause of them. 3. A villain is a character in a literary work that does evil things. 4. Feanor was directly and indirectly responsible for many evil actions, the Kinslaying, the abandonment of his brother's host, etc. He was therefore evil and a villain. Not in Melkor's or Sauron's league, but quite in Saruman's, I think. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

05-18-2003, 08:43 PM	#235
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	beats head on computer desk __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

05-20-2003, 10:00 AM	#236
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Don't worry about it. He was a villain. He's sitting right here next to me in the villain's club. Females don't want him to be a villain because they think he's cute, but you know how they are, they almost always wind up picking the wrong guy...... __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

05-20-2003, 01:13 PM	#237
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Hehe - Blackheart you're wrong. We think he's cute because he's a villain. If that's what he is. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

05-21-2003, 12:35 PM	#238
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Bah. If that were so then all the women would think that I was cute, instead of merely ruggedly handsome... __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

05-21-2003, 01:32 PM	#240
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Ruggedly handsome is also yummy. Fëanor was not a villain to begin with, but he became one. You misled him, Blackheart. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 05-21-2003 at 01:38 PM.

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